NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Agreed, but I have no idea how to solve this. The problem we are facing as teachers is that parents don’t want real life (it’s real ups and downs) to happen to their children. They are trying to protect their kids from all ills, not seeing that interacting with others brings about its own stress because kids make mistakes. Parents then try to hold teachers responsible for every slight, bruise and bump that happens during childhood because childhood should be so “protected.” It isn’t really about being allies because there is no way to keep life from happening to a kid.

Teaching the kids is really fun, but parents have an expectation that everything be “happy and positive” but that isn’t life. Life is about dealing with crap AND being happy and content too. So, I am looking for another job after 24 years. I’m not changing the attitude of parents, but it has definitely changed since I started teaching in 2000. I may make another 6 years, I am only 45, but I am looking to get away from parents and still work with kids (ESL maybe or interventionist).

These are solvable problems, but because you insist on viewing parents as your adversary, you avoid solutions.

WHY do some parents seek to protect their kids from any adversity? Is it because parents are selfish and stupid? No. It's because parents are under intense pressure to ensure their child succeeds, and we live in a culture that punishes people for mistakes forever.

Parents are afraid. They are afraid that if their child struggles in 2nd grade, they won't have the same opportunities in 6th or 9th or college, and they'll be limited and struggle in adulthood to. Parents are also under constant pressure to prove their kids are "thriving," Also, and this one is mom-specific, parents get blamed every day in ways big and small for anything that isn't perfect in their kids' lives. It leads to guilt and anxiety.

And finally, sometimes parents are right. Sometimes kids should be protected. Sometimes a kid is actually being bullied and the school needs to intervene. Sometimes that "quirky" kid actually has special needs that aren't being addressed. Sometimes a parent really does know better what their kid needs, because while you are the education expert, they know their child better. Sometimes listening to a parent could be a gift, not a burden.

I think maybe you don’t understand the scope of the problem. Here is an example from a colleague: Parent email: Larla has small bruise on her shin and we asked Larla 3 times what happened and the kid says I don’t know. (Please see the accompanying picture) And then the parents ask if we happened to see an incident on the playground with 120 Kindergartners that may have bruised their child’s shin when it was such a non issue the KID doesn’t even know, never told the teacher about it, etc. And could we please make sure Larla doesn’t fall on the playground.

I’m glad you think parents are right and children need to be protected, but protected from shin bruises?

I’m sure this will work itself out, but probably not by the time I leave. Go ahead and blame “parental anxiety” and the need for children to “thrive”. Sure blame me/my colleagues and our inability to write thoughtful emails to overly anxious parents in the 20 minutes of time we have. Or blame our inability to “view parents as partners.” It doesn’t really matter, I’m just telling you the problems we are facing. I’m sure I could be much more empathetic and follow the kids around on the playground with foam or put shin guards on all the kids before they play on the playground. I’m not a therapist so I am not qualified to deal with parental anxiety.

"The problems we are facing" = a couple overzealous parents who want to bubble wrap their child into adulthood. Annoying, but manageable and not new.

Part of teaching K, or any ECE level, is teaching parents how school works. It's just part of the job. If you teach PK/K and often even 1st, part of your skill set has to be working with parents who may be overprotective or simply not understand a lot of things. Yes it can be extremely irritating. In my school district, ECE teachers require extra certifications and get paid more than upper elementary teachers specifically because the job is harder. You have to interact with parents more, the kids need to be socialized into school, everything is new and you have to serve as their guide. It's hard. I think all teachers should make more than they do, and that ECE teachers in particular should be better compensated for the very important work they do. But these are not new or unreasonable job expectations. It's just literally what it is to be a teacher, especially in the early levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

Yes, but if a disruptive kid has an IEP and parents insist that the mainstream classroom is the LRE, there is a long process to change that and/or threat of lawsuits.

Yup. The friction created by IEPs in terms of bureaucracy and potential litigation is a penalty on schools all by itself -- even where the schools are in the right and act within their authority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

+1 Add home healthcare workers to that list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Agreed, but I have no idea how to solve this. The problem we are facing as teachers is that parents don’t want real life (it’s real ups and downs) to happen to their children. They are trying to protect their kids from all ills, not seeing that interacting with others brings about its own stress because kids make mistakes. Parents then try to hold teachers responsible for every slight, bruise and bump that happens during childhood because childhood should be so “protected.” It isn’t really about being allies because there is no way to keep life from happening to a kid.

Teaching the kids is really fun, but parents have an expectation that everything be “happy and positive” but that isn’t life. Life is about dealing with crap AND being happy and content too. So, I am looking for another job after 24 years. I’m not changing the attitude of parents, but it has definitely changed since I started teaching in 2000. I may make another 6 years, I am only 45, but I am looking to get away from parents and still work with kids (ESL maybe or interventionist).

These are solvable problems, but because you insist on viewing parents as your adversary, you avoid solutions.

WHY do some parents seek to protect their kids from any adversity? Is it because parents are selfish and stupid? No. It's because parents are under intense pressure to ensure their child succeeds, and we live in a culture that punishes people for mistakes forever.

Parents are afraid. They are afraid that if their child struggles in 2nd grade, they won't have the same opportunities in 6th or 9th or college, and they'll be limited and struggle in adulthood to. Parents are also under constant pressure to prove their kids are "thriving," Also, and this one is mom-specific, parents get blamed every day in ways big and small for anything that isn't perfect in their kids' lives. It leads to guilt and anxiety.

And finally, sometimes parents are right. Sometimes kids should be protected. Sometimes a kid is actually being bullied and the school needs to intervene. Sometimes that "quirky" kid actually has special needs that aren't being addressed. Sometimes a parent really does know better what their kid needs, because while you are the education expert, they know their child better. Sometimes listening to a parent could be a gift, not a burden.

I think maybe you don’t understand the scope of the problem. Here is an example from a colleague: Parent email: Larla has small bruise on her shin and we asked Larla 3 times what happened and the kid says I don’t know. (Please see the accompanying picture) And then the parents ask if we happened to see an incident on the playground with 120 Kindergartners that may have bruised their child’s shin when it was such a non issue the KID doesn’t even know, never told the teacher about it, etc. And could we please make sure Larla doesn’t fall on the playground.

I’m glad you think parents are right and children need to be protected, but protected from shin bruises?

I’m sure this will work itself out, but probably not by the time I leave. Go ahead and blame “parental anxiety” and the need for children to “thrive”. Sure blame me/my colleagues and our inability to write thoughtful emails to overly anxious parents in the 20 minutes of time we have. Or blame our inability to “view parents as partners.” It doesn’t really matter, I’m just telling you the problems we are facing. I’m sure I could be much more empathetic and follow the kids around on the playground with foam or put shin guards on all the kids before they play on the playground. I’m not a therapist so I am not qualified to deal with parental anxiety.

"The problems we are facing" = a couple overzealous parents who want to bubble wrap their child into adulthood. Annoying, but manageable and not new.

Part of teaching K, or any ECE level, is teaching parents how school works. It's just part of the job. If you teach PK/K and often even 1st, part of your skill set has to be working with parents who may be overprotective or simply not understand a lot of things. Yes it can be extremely irritating. In my school district, ECE teachers require extra certifications and get paid more than upper elementary teachers specifically because the job is harder. You have to interact with parents more, the kids need to be socialized into school, everything is new and you have to serve as their guide. It's hard. I think all teachers should make more than they do, and that ECE teachers in particular should be better compensated for the very important work they do. But these are not new or unreasonable job expectations. It's just literally what it is to be a teacher, especially in the early levels.

Sorry, you may have been out of the ECE level for a while, but this is now becoming the norm, not outliers. 20 years ago you never saw this kind of crazy, but now it happens all the time.

So, I guess that is my point: If this is the job, the job “expectations” have changed because more parents are overly anxious. I understand I need to find a new job and am looking to be part of the problem and move out of the classroom or career change. But the thing is most teachers are thinking like I am and the profession isn’t attracting new young teachers, so maybe the “reasonable expectations” aren’t so reasonable to most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Agreed, but I have no idea how to solve this. The problem we are facing as teachers is that parents don’t want real life (it’s real ups and downs) to happen to their children. They are trying to protect their kids from all ills, not seeing that interacting with others brings about its own stress because kids make mistakes. Parents then try to hold teachers responsible for every slight, bruise and bump that happens during childhood because childhood should be so “protected.” It isn’t really about being allies because there is no way to keep life from happening to a kid.

Teaching the kids is really fun, but parents have an expectation that everything be “happy and positive” but that isn’t life. Life is about dealing with crap AND being happy and content too. So, I am looking for another job after 24 years. I’m not changing the attitude of parents, but it has definitely changed since I started teaching in 2000. I may make another 6 years, I am only 45, but I am looking to get away from parents and still work with kids (ESL maybe or interventionist).

These are solvable problems, but because you insist on viewing parents as your adversary, you avoid solutions.

WHY do some parents seek to protect their kids from any adversity? Is it because parents are selfish and stupid? No. It's because parents are under intense pressure to ensure their child succeeds, and we live in a culture that punishes people for mistakes forever.

Parents are afraid. They are afraid that if their child struggles in 2nd grade, they won't have the same opportunities in 6th or 9th or college, and they'll be limited and struggle in adulthood to. Parents are also under constant pressure to prove their kids are "thriving," Also, and this one is mom-specific, parents get blamed every day in ways big and small for anything that isn't perfect in their kids' lives. It leads to guilt and anxiety.

And finally, sometimes parents are right. Sometimes kids should be protected. Sometimes a kid is actually being bullied and the school needs to intervene. Sometimes that "quirky" kid actually has special needs that aren't being addressed. Sometimes a parent really does know better what their kid needs, because while you are the education expert, they know their child better. Sometimes listening to a parent could be a gift, not a burden.

I think maybe you don’t understand the scope of the problem. Here is an example from a colleague: Parent email: Larla has small bruise on her shin and we asked Larla 3 times what happened and the kid says I don’t know. (Please see the accompanying picture) And then the parents ask if we happened to see an incident on the playground with 120 Kindergartners that may have bruised their child’s shin when it was such a non issue the KID doesn’t even know, never told the teacher about it, etc. And could we please make sure Larla doesn’t fall on the playground.

I’m glad you think parents are right and children need to be protected, but protected from shin bruises?

I’m sure this will work itself out, but probably not by the time I leave. Go ahead and blame “parental anxiety” and the need for children to “thrive”. Sure blame me/my colleagues and our inability to write thoughtful emails to overly anxious parents in the 20 minutes of time we have. Or blame our inability to “view parents as partners.” It doesn’t really matter, I’m just telling you the problems we are facing. I’m sure I could be much more empathetic and follow the kids around on the playground with foam or put shin guards on all the kids before they play on the playground. I’m not a therapist so I am not qualified to deal with parental anxiety.

"The problems we are facing" = a couple overzealous parents who want to bubble wrap their child into adulthood. Annoying, but manageable and not new.

Part of teaching K, or any ECE level, is teaching parents how school works. It's just part of the job. If you teach PK/K and often even 1st, part of your skill set has to be working with parents who may be overprotective or simply not understand a lot of things. Yes it can be extremely irritating. In my school district, ECE teachers require extra certifications and get paid more than upper elementary teachers specifically because the job is harder. You have to interact with parents more, the kids need to be socialized into school, everything is new and you have to serve as their guide. It's hard. I think all teachers should make more than they do, and that ECE teachers in particular should be better compensated for the very important work they do. But these are not new or unreasonable job expectations. It's just literally what it is to be a teacher, especially in the early levels.

Sorry, you may have been out of the ECE level for a while, but this is now becoming the norm, not outliers. 20 years ago you never saw this kind of crazy, but now it happens all the time.

So, I guess that is my point: If this is the job, the job “expectations” have changed because more parents are overly anxious. I understand I need to find a new job and am looking to be part of the problem and move out of the classroom or career change. But the thing is most teachers are thinking like I am and the profession isn’t attracting new young teachers, so maybe the “reasonable expectations” aren’t so reasonable to most.

+100 As a HS Teacher, I would also add that some of the parents are completely unreasonable. I recently had a situation in class in which two students were caught cheating. Per my school's rules, neither on of them got credit on that assignment. I wrote home and received the nastiest email back from one the parents accusing me of unfairly targeting her child who of course was completely innocent... the email also said mom was going to report me higher up the food chain for "bullying" her child.

I cannot wait to leave this profession.

[Anonymous]

I wonder to what degree Covid made more parents overprotective/obsessive about their kids. I have personally found the pivot from "Your kids are home with you 24/7, there's a pandemic and you are individually responsible for keeping your family safe from it, and you are also now supervising their entire schedule every day," to "just relax, stop hovering, let your kids figure it out, leave teachers alone." I'm not saying the shift is wrong, it's just giving me whiplash to some degree and I'm sure I sometimes come off as overprotective and helicopter-y, just as I'm also sure that during Covid I sometimes came off as insufficiently vigilant or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder to what degree Covid made more parents overprotective/obsessive about their kids. I have personally found the pivot from "Your kids are home with you 24/7, there's a pandemic and you are individually responsible for keeping your family safe from it, and you are also now supervising their entire schedule every day," to "just relax, stop hovering, let your kids figure it out, leave teachers alone." I'm not saying the shift is wrong, it's just giving me whiplash to some degree and I'm sure I sometimes come off as overprotective and helicopter-y, just as I'm also sure that during Covid I sometimes came off as insufficiently vigilant or whatever.

I think it is a combination of covid and technology. I think we get used to having things so instantaneously available on our phones (deliver food, google somethjng, banking etc) that when people encounter something out of their control (traffic, their kids, their kids peers) they go ballistic.
COVID made the world just your house for a while and opening up is rough sailing but I also think people who parent now are used to having everything immediately. Good development for kids isn’t instantaneous. It is slow and needs to involve obstacles to help kids grow. Parents aren’t used to that, so they get upset.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the PP. Most of the parents who flip out on me tend to do it when I don’t reply right away on Dojo. I might send them a message at lunch but I won’t see Dojo again for a few hours because I’m teaching. They don’t seem to understand that. They keep sending me messages that are increasingly crazy. I’ve had to explain to more than one parent that teachers don’t sit at their desks. They don’t seem to grasp that.

[Anonymous]

I get a daily main from random parents about checking to see if their kid turned in work.

Like I get that is part of my job. But for every darn assignment? Parents can see this online or just have the kid show them that is was turned in on MyMCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get a daily main from random parents about checking to see if their kid turned in work.

Like I get that is part of my job. But for every darn assignment? Parents can see this online or just have the kid show them that is was turned in on MyMCPS.

Answer once where they can check for updated grades, then ignore. They aren’t going to meet you at your house. A parent “flipping out” over email means nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

Yes, their complaints are mostly hollow nonsense. I often think of writings from classical Athens thousands of years ago with the same complaints about today's youth and the decline of civilization. I guess some things never change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the PP. Most of the parents who flip out on me tend to do it when I don’t reply right away on Dojo. I might send them a message at lunch but I won’t see Dojo again for a few hours because I’m teaching. They don’t seem to understand that. They keep sending me messages that are increasingly crazy. I’ve had to explain to more than one parent that teachers don’t sit at their desks. They don’t seem to grasp that.

I’m an ES teacher. Drop Dojo.

[Anonymous]

We can’t. Our admin requires us to use it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder to what degree Covid made more parents overprotective/obsessive about their kids. I have personally found the pivot from "Your kids are home with you 24/7, there's a pandemic and you are individually responsible for keeping your family safe from it, and you are also now supervising their entire schedule every day," to "just relax, stop hovering, let your kids figure it out, leave teachers alone." I'm not saying the shift is wrong, it's just giving me whiplash to some degree and I'm sure I sometimes come off as overprotective and helicopter-y, just as I'm also sure that during Covid I sometimes came off as insufficiently vigilant or whatever.

There are currently FCPS parents comparing grade book update times on their thread. It's out of control

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder to what degree Covid made more parents overprotective/obsessive about their kids. I have personally found the pivot from "Your kids are home with you 24/7, there's a pandemic and you are individually responsible for keeping your family safe from it, and you are also now supervising their entire schedule every day," to "just relax, stop hovering, let your kids figure it out, leave teachers alone." I'm not saying the shift is wrong, it's just giving me whiplash to some degree and I'm sure I sometimes come off as overprotective and helicopter-y, just as I'm also sure that during Covid I sometimes came off as insufficiently vigilant or whatever.

There are currently FCPS parents comparing grade book update times on their thread. It's out of control

That’s bc it is FCPS. That isn’t representative of the majority public schools. My middle schoolers’ teachers update their grades maybe weekly. A couple of the teachers will be go over a month before inputting grades or do a massive dump of all the grades the night before the trimester ends.