NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

+100. If a child needs a more restrictive environment, IDEA doesn't prohibit them from getting it.

It does require loads of paperwork and parental support, neither of which is easy to access.

[Anonymous]

If you read the teachers subreddit, a recurring theme is a lack of support from administrators for disciplining students. They can’t manage difficult students and difficult parents if the administration won’t back them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

No, but the way the IDEA is currently being interpreted means disruptive and dangerous students are kept in the classroom. Terrible funding formulas are the nail in the coffin.

[Anonymous]

Pay teachers more, it’s that simple. These are educated professionals and we are expecting a lot out of them without making it worth their while. 80k should be starting salary, you will have a pool of good candidates and come down hard in the discipline issues. Enough is enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

On the flip side, I think as a parent that teachers are feeling a huge push to be kind and nice and to not discipline at all. How do I sign my kids up for an old school strict teacher? The kind that has then organized to perfection, labeling and double checking their work. My dd is very forgetful and when I've chided her for forgetting something she will say "don't worry, my teacher says it's okay if things are late and that she won't take off for it." I'm not the only one who asked for a strict teacher either. Executive functioning skills are sorely lacking in kids.

Move south https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/08/10/school-paddling-corporal-punishment/

I remember being paddled so many times in first grade. Back then, parents totally supported this type of discipline, so there was no holding back.

[Anonymous]

Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

I am so tired of this complaint. You are the seasoned professional. They are not. They don't know what you need to know and what you don't need to know. They don't know if emails are annoying or useful. Who remember or even knew under what circumstances their parents contacted the teacher or the school when they were a kid? I was a child, I have no idea how my mom handled that stuff, and she has dementia now so I can't ask her.

I genuinely try not to waste teacher's time but sometimes I honestly do not know what is expected of me. And many teachers are so bad at setting expectations and making it clear. Sometimes I'll just ask "Hey do you need me to let you know about absence or should I just let the office know?" Because I don't want to pester them but I also don't know if it might be useful for them to know in advance how many kids they'll have or if they want to send homework home early. You know what response I get most often when I ask teachers explicitly whether they need me to contact them regarding certain things? "Oh either way is fine." WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

Look, I am deeply appreciative for the work teachers do with my kids and I think y'all are performing a really fundamental, important job for society. I think pretty much all of you should be paid more and I get pissed about stuff like failing facilities and bad district-level leadership too. But when I read these screeds about stupid parents doing stupid things like... letting you know their kid won't be in class? informing you of an injury? That's not so obviously unimportant as you think it is. If it's a problem, tell parents in advance once things are important to hear from them and what aren't.

If teachers are quitting because parents are emailing them about why their kid has a bandage on their knee, then I don't know what to tell you. This truly cannot be the central problem in education today. Literally just select the predictive text response that best matches (thumbs up emoji is the one I use when people tell me things I don't really need to know) and move on with your day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

I am so tired of this complaint. You are the seasoned professional. They are not. They don't know what you need to know and what you don't need to know. They don't know if emails are annoying or useful. Who remember or even knew under what circumstances their parents contacted the teacher or the school when they were a kid? I was a child, I have no idea how my mom handled that stuff, and she has dementia now so I can't ask her.

I genuinely try not to waste teacher's time but sometimes I honestly do not know what is expected of me. And many teachers are so bad at setting expectations and making it clear. Sometimes I'll just ask "Hey do you need me to let you know about absence or should I just let the office know?" Because I don't want to pester them but I also don't know if it might be useful for them to know in advance how many kids they'll have or if they want to send homework home early. You know what response I get most often when I ask teachers explicitly whether they need me to contact them regarding certain things? "Oh either way is fine." WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

Look, I am deeply appreciative for the work teachers do with my kids and I think y'all are performing a really fundamental, important job for society. I think pretty much all of you should be paid more and I get pissed about stuff like failing facilities and bad district-level leadership too. But when I read these screeds about stupid parents doing stupid things like... letting you know their kid won't be in class? informing you of an injury? That's not so obviously unimportant as you think it is. If it's a problem, tell parents in advance once things are important to hear from them and what aren't.

If teachers are quitting because parents are emailing them about why their kid has a bandage on their knee, then I don't know what to tell you. This truly cannot be the central problem in education today. Literally just select the predictive text response that best matches (thumbs up emoji is the one I use when people tell me things I don't really need to know) and move on with your day.

Honestly, I shouldn't have to spend my time defending myself against your feigned incompetence--DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

I am so tired of this complaint. You are the seasoned professional. They are not. They don't know what you need to know and what you don't need to know. They don't know if emails are annoying or useful. Who remember or even knew under what circumstances their parents contacted the teacher or the school when they were a kid? I was a child, I have no idea how my mom handled that stuff, and she has dementia now so I can't ask her.

I genuinely try not to waste teacher's time but sometimes I honestly do not know what is expected of me. And many teachers are so bad at setting expectations and making it clear. Sometimes I'll just ask "Hey do you need me to let you know about absence or should I just let the office know?" Because I don't want to pester them but I also don't know if it might be useful for them to know in advance how many kids they'll have or if they want to send homework home early. You know what response I get most often when I ask teachers explicitly whether they need me to contact them regarding certain things? "Oh either way is fine." WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

Look, I am deeply appreciative for the work teachers do with my kids and I think y'all are performing a really fundamental, important job for society. I think pretty much all of you should be paid more and I get pissed about stuff like failing facilities and bad district-level leadership too. But when I read these screeds about stupid parents doing stupid things like... letting you know their kid won't be in class? informing you of an injury? That's not so obviously unimportant as you think it is. If it's a problem, tell parents in advance once things are important to hear from them and what aren't.

If teachers are quitting because parents are emailing them about why their kid has a bandage on their knee, then I don't know what to tell you. This truly cannot be the central problem in education today. Literally just select the predictive text response that best matches (thumbs up emoji is the one I use when people tell me things I don't really need to know) and move on with your day.

Has it occurred to you that OP isn't talking about parents like you and/or that your teachers haven't been representative of all teachers? I have never had to email my teachers about those kinds of things because in my district they make the school nurses and the office staff take care of those things, and they communicate that to parents. Teachers don't have to worry about attendance and bandaids unless a parent hasn't been paying attention. Also please remember that when teachers complain of one thing that is taking up too much of their time, that doesn't mean it's the only thing taking up too much of their time. If you are concerned about your child's education you might want to take a step back and realize you probably aren't contributing to the teacher shortage crisis and be kinder and more understanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

I don’t get this. You don’t need to respond, or can respond in a succinct manner. The length of anger mom’s email and the time of day she sends it is irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

Another teacher agreeing with my colleague. See above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

On the flip side, I think as a parent that teachers are feeling a huge push to be kind and nice and to not discipline at all. How do I sign my kids up for an old school strict teacher? The kind that has then organized to perfection, labeling and double checking their work. My dd is very forgetful and when I've chided her for forgetting something she will say "don't worry, my teacher says it's okay if things are late and that she won't take off for it." I'm not the only one who asked for a strict teacher either. Executive functioning skills are sorely lacking in kids.

Move south https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/08/10/school-paddling-corporal-punishment/

I remember being paddled so many times in first grade. Back then, parents totally supported this type of discipline, so there was no holding back.

Stands to reason. We were a more violent society with more violent crime back then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

This is such a petty and dumb complaint in a conversation that is about bigger issues that all I can think is that it's good you, specifically, are a former teacher. "I hate that some of my students' parents were very invested in their kids' education, and also were not always succinct in their communications." That's fine, but not an industry-wide issue in need of addressing. Do you want to... eliminate SAHMs? Discourage parents from contacting teachers? Enroll parents in writing courses so they can ask their questions and make their comments more directly?

I hope the paragraph length of my comment isn't too much for you to handle.

You are exactely the reason why my DD as an elementary teacher will quit her job. Insufferable parents of uneducated kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

So put them where? Many states don't direct enough money towards schools.

The schools that do generally have policies that make it hard to spend the money effectively.