NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

… says the person who hasn’t ever taught.

I find it fascinating when ignorant posters chime in. Clearly the exodus out of the profession means nothing to you.

If it’s so easy, tell me why you aren’t signing up. I’d love to hear.

It’s not a mass exodus, just a couple percent higher per year than before the pandemic.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/3/6/23624340/teacher-turnover-leaving-the-profession-quitting-higher-rate?_amp=true

Given that more than 85% of teachers aren’t leaving every year, maybe this is just a natural weeding out of whingers who can’t hack it?

I watched two teachers at my school quit already and it’s only September. I’ve had to walk a crying teacher into the building last week, and I suspect she’ll be the 3rd to quit. My department is made up of primarily new teachers, and I doubt half will be back.

But sure, all-knowing DCUM, keep ignoring what those of us with actual experience are telling you. With the exception of the lawyer (who somehow thinks this will be easy), I don’t see anybody else joining our ranks. The challenge is out there. If we have it so good, join us. There are plenty of openings.

I am the career changing lawyer and I would like you to review my posts and tell me where I EVER said it was EASY - you can’t, because I NEVER did. I am being attacked here after an initial warm welcome, because I had the temerity to challenge a teacher who was making proclamations about what lawyers experience in their careers - length of hours in court, time to plan their cases, and salaries. The teacher had it entirely wrong and I simply provided, without attacking, the accurate information. And since then I’ve been repeatedly and roundly attacked.

Honestly I’m shocked at the nasty petty attitudes being displayed here by TEACHERS. Do you wallow with glee in anticipation of your students’ failures, too? Those of you behaving this way do not seem to me to have the right temperament to be teachers of young people nor mentors of fellow teachers.

I have a lot of experience in education, not just the 22 years I spent as a student but also 10 years as an educator at university, grade school and high school levels. And one thing I do know is that some teachers are bullies. And I suspect that some of you rabidly attacking me also express your hostility to the poor kids in your classrooms.

DP and a parent, not a teacher. But I would wager you are getting "attacked" because of your condescending attitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

… says the person who hasn’t ever taught.

I find it fascinating when ignorant posters chime in. Clearly the exodus out of the profession means nothing to you.

If it’s so easy, tell me why you aren’t signing up. I’d love to hear.

It’s not a mass exodus, just a couple percent higher per year than before the pandemic.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/3/6/23624340/teacher-turnover-leaving-the-profession-quitting-higher-rate?_amp=true

Given that more than 85% of teachers aren’t leaving every year, maybe this is just a natural weeding out of whingers who can’t hack it?

I watched two teachers at my school quit already and it’s only September. I’ve had to walk a crying teacher into the building last week, and I suspect she’ll be the 3rd to quit. My department is made up of primarily new teachers, and I doubt half will be back.

But sure, all-knowing DCUM, keep ignoring what those of us with actual experience are telling you. With the exception of the lawyer (who somehow thinks this will be easy), I don’t see anybody else joining our ranks. The challenge is out there. If we have it so good, join us. There are plenty of openings.

I am the career changing lawyer and I would like you to review my posts and tell me where I EVER said it was EASY - you can’t, because I NEVER did. I am being attacked here after an initial warm welcome, because I had the temerity to challenge a teacher who was making proclamations about what lawyers experience in their careers - length of hours in court, time to plan their cases, and salaries. The teacher had it entirely wrong and I simply provided, without attacking, the accurate information. And since then I’ve been repeatedly and roundly attacked.

Honestly I’m shocked at the nasty petty attitudes being displayed here by TEACHERS. Do you wallow with glee in anticipation of your students’ failures, too? Those of you behaving this way do not seem to me to have the right temperament to be teachers of young people nor mentors of fellow teachers.

I have a lot of experience in education, not just the 22 years I spent as a student but also 10 years as an educator at university, grade school and high school levels. And one thing I do know is that some teachers are bullies. And I suspect that some of you rabidly attacking me also express your hostility to the poor kids in your classrooms.

DP and a parent, not a teacher. But I would wager you are getting "attacked" because of your condescending attitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

… says the person who hasn’t ever taught.

I find it fascinating when ignorant posters chime in. Clearly the exodus out of the profession means nothing to you.

If it’s so easy, tell me why you aren’t signing up. I’d love to hear.

It’s not a mass exodus, just a couple percent higher per year than before the pandemic.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/3/6/23624340/teacher-turnover-leaving-the-profession-quitting-higher-rate?_amp=true

Given that more than 85% of teachers aren’t leaving every year, maybe this is just a natural weeding out of whingers who can’t hack it?

I watched two teachers at my school quit already and it’s only September. I’ve had to walk a crying teacher into the building last week, and I suspect she’ll be the 3rd to quit. My department is made up of primarily new teachers, and I doubt half will be back.

But sure, all-knowing DCUM, keep ignoring what those of us with actual experience are telling you. With the exception of the lawyer (who somehow thinks this will be easy), I don’t see anybody else joining our ranks. The challenge is out there. If we have it so good, join us. There are plenty of openings.

I am the career changing lawyer and I would like you to review my posts and tell me where I EVER said it was EASY - you can’t, because I NEVER did. I am being attacked here after an initial warm welcome, because I had the temerity to challenge a teacher who was making proclamations about what lawyers experience in their careers - length of hours in court, time to plan their cases, and salaries. The teacher had it entirely wrong and I simply provided, without attacking, the accurate information. And since then I’ve been repeatedly and roundly attacked.

Honestly I’m shocked at the nasty petty attitudes being displayed here by TEACHERS. Do you wallow with glee in anticipation of your students’ failures, too? Those of you behaving this way do not seem to me to have the right temperament to be teachers of young people nor mentors of fellow teachers.

I have a lot of experience in education, not just the 22 years I spent as a student but also 10 years as an educator at university, grade school and high school levels. And one thing I do know is that some teachers are bullies. And I suspect that some of you rabidly attacking me also express your hostility to the poor kids in your classrooms.

DP and a parent, not a teacher. But I would wager you are getting "attacked" because of your condescending attitude.

+1

I hope it goes smoothly for you, PP, but you come across as super high and mighty and it makes me all prickly reading your posts, and I'm not even a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

It sounds like you're referencing DCPS, the district I work in. I went back once vaccinated, in April of 2021. I was on our schools reopening committee. I also stand by the union having a hard line asking for "concessions" that included working HVAC and PPE. Other teachers didn't feel as safe and they were granted permission to teach from home. Many people didn't like that teachers were receiving that permission, and took it out on them, rather than the people granting permission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about teaching in my golden years. I'm more afraid of being shot, catching something from an unvaxxed kid, or being targeted in some way by easily triggered parents.

Plus the pay is terrible.

No please don’t teach. If you don’t know that the vaccine works for the vaccinated person and not for those around them, maybe you need more education yourself

https://vaccinateyourfamily.org/testimonials/leslie/
https://www.osha.gov/measles/hazards
https://www.insider.com/teacher-leukemia-dies-coronavirus-school-no-mask-mandate-2021-8
"teachers were at approximately a fourfold higher risk for pertussis compared with the general population during a period when high rates of pertussis occurred among adolescents" https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5517a1.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

It sounds like you're referencing DCPS, the district I work in. I went back once vaccinated, in April of 2021. I was on our schools reopening committee. I also stand by the union having a hard line asking for "concessions" that included working HVAC and PPE. Other teachers didn't feel as safe and they were granted permission to teach from home. Many people didn't like that teachers were receiving that permission, and took it out on them, rather than the people granting permission.

If a teacher was given vaccine preference and schools had updated HVAC and mandatory masking (which DCPS schools did) and then still refused to work in person, then I rightly hold that teacher responsible for the choice THEY made. A choice that harmed kids. I can also hold the administrators and Central Office people who enabled that choice accountable, but the idea that this lets a teacher off the hook is ridiculous. I blame her for making a bad choice.

DCPS had among the longest school shut down in the country, and that was driven largely by the teacher's union. You can complain about parents and their annoying emails all you want, but you lost the moral high ground when you decided it was fine for teachers to simply not go into work for a year and a half (when nurses, doctors, grocery store clerks, bartenders and waiters, daycare workers, private school teachers, and many others were all working in person). You want to complain about how parents don't think their kids should ever experience any adversity or unhappiness in life? Okay, start with the full grown adults who didn't want to get off their couches and go do the jobs they chose and were paid to do in classrooms. Start with the many teachers who refused to get vaccinated after claiming vaccination was essential for return. Or the bad faith expectation that schools not re-open until all the 4 and 5 year olds had K95s strapped to their faces or entire HVAC systems had been replaced in every school in the city.

Is it the parents and their kids who are afraid of adversity and challenges? Because in this thread and in my experience, I see a lot of teachers who are complaining about simply performing the basic tasks of their job like it's an unreasonable ask to respond to a parent email or stand in front of a classroom of kids and teach. Who is it that lacks resilience here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

… says the person who hasn’t ever taught.

I find it fascinating when ignorant posters chime in. Clearly the exodus out of the profession means nothing to you.

If it’s so easy, tell me why you aren’t signing up. I’d love to hear.

It’s not a mass exodus, just a couple percent higher per year than before the pandemic.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/3/6/23624340/teacher-turnover-leaving-the-profession-quitting-higher-rate?_amp=true

Given that more than 85% of teachers aren’t leaving every year, maybe this is just a natural weeding out of whingers who can’t hack it?

I watched two teachers at my school quit already and it’s only September. I’ve had to walk a crying teacher into the building last week, and I suspect she’ll be the 3rd to quit. My department is made up of primarily new teachers, and I doubt half will be back.

But sure, all-knowing DCUM, keep ignoring what those of us with actual experience are telling you. With the exception of the lawyer (who somehow thinks this will be easy), I don’t see anybody else joining our ranks. The challenge is out there. If we have it so good, join us. There are plenty of openings.

I am the career changing lawyer and I would like you to review my posts and tell me where I EVER said it was EASY - you can’t, because I NEVER did. I am being attacked here after an initial warm welcome, because I had the temerity to challenge a teacher who was making proclamations about what lawyers experience in their careers - length of hours in court, time to plan their cases, and salaries. The teacher had it entirely wrong and I simply provided, without attacking, the accurate information. And since then I’ve been repeatedly and roundly attacked.

Honestly I’m shocked at the nasty petty attitudes being displayed here by TEACHERS. Do you wallow with glee in anticipation of your students’ failures, too? Those of you behaving this way do not seem to me to have the right temperament to be teachers of young people nor mentors of fellow teachers.

I have a lot of experience in education, not just the 22 years I spent as a student but also 10 years as an educator at university, grade school and high school levels. And one thing I do know is that some teachers are bullies. And I suspect that some of you rabidly attacking me also express your hostility to the poor kids in your classrooms.

DP and a parent, not a teacher. But I would wager you are getting "attacked" because of your condescending attitude.

NP. She wasn't condescending at all. She stated her experiences and beliefs, same as everyone on here. Seems your definition of "condescending" is "struck a nerve."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

It sounds like you're referencing DCPS, the district I work in. I went back once vaccinated, in April of 2021. I was on our schools reopening committee. I also stand by the union having a hard line asking for "concessions" that included working HVAC and PPE. Other teachers didn't feel as safe and they were granted permission to teach from home. Many people didn't like that teachers were receiving that permission, and took it out on them, rather than the people granting permission.

If a teacher was given vaccine preference and schools had updated HVAC and mandatory masking (which DCPS schools did) and then still refused to work in person, then I rightly hold that teacher responsible for the choice THEY made. A choice that harmed kids. I can also hold the administrators and Central Office people who enabled that choice accountable, but the idea that this lets a teacher off the hook is ridiculous. I blame her for making a bad choice.

DCPS had among the longest school shut down in the country, and that was driven largely by the teacher's union. You can complain about parents and their annoying emails all you want, but you lost the moral high ground when you decided it was fine for teachers to simply not go into work for a year and a half (when nurses, doctors, grocery store clerks, bartenders and waiters, daycare workers, private school teachers, and many others were all working in person). You want to complain about how parents don't think their kids should ever experience any adversity or unhappiness in life? Okay, start with the full grown adults who didn't want to get off their couches and go do the jobs they chose and were paid to do in classrooms. Start with the many teachers who refused to get vaccinated after claiming vaccination was essential for return. Or the bad faith expectation that schools not re-open until all the 4 and 5 year olds had K95s strapped to their faces or entire HVAC systems had been replaced in every school in the city.

Is it the parents and their kids who are afraid of adversity and challenges? Because in this thread and in my experience, I see a lot of teachers who are complaining about simply performing the basic tasks of their job like it's an unreasonable ask to respond to a parent email or stand in front of a classroom of kids and teach. Who is it that lacks resilience here?

Please note that nothing in my statement admonished parents outside of the fact that they took out their frustrations on teachers. You on the other hand have honestly reopened old woudns and are saying some incredibly unkind things.
And to think that teachers and their union were acting in bad faith for the appropriate infrastructure during a pandemic, particularly in DCPS, is just wrong. DCPS has time and time again left facilities undersupported and in poor condition. There was an article written about it just earlier this week in WaPo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/09/16/dc-school-repairs-hvac/

These attacks need to stop. Listen to teachers when they tell you that they're overwhelmed by the sheer volume of emails they receive. Hear them out when they tell you they don't feel adequately supported. Stop trying to make everything a battle of who has it worse, or harboring all of these resentments still when you don't know our situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

You are welcome to start that thread. This one is about teaching.
Teachers are not paid at the same level as most white collar workers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.