How to handle a kid who does not want a Bar Mitzvah

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

I disagree, but if so, your reasoning would apply to you, too. There must be serious parental issues if you engage with people like me about your religion.

[Anonymous]

I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

I disagree, but if so, your reasoning would apply to you, too. There must be serious parental issues if you engage with people like me about your religion.

Possibly, my parents are shrinks - so they taught me how to spot hyper vigilant narcissists like you at a young age. Happy healing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

I disagree, but if so, your reasoning would apply to you, too. There must be serious parental issues if you engage with people like me about your religion.

Possibly, my parents are shrinks - so they taught me how to spot hyper vigilant narcissists like you at a young age. Happy healing.

DP. Child of two shrinks. That explains it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

I disagree, but if so, your reasoning would apply to you, too. There must be serious parental issues if you engage with people like me about your religion.

Possibly, my parents are shrinks - so they taught me how to spot hyper vigilant narcissists like you at a young age. Happy healing.

DP. Child of two shrinks. That explains it.

Shrinks know that you can't diagnose people on line. Maybe if they saw this conversation they would tell their kid that they come across as foolish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

I wish people of all religions, and no religion, would be kinder to each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

Maybe a synagogue, members-only online forum. Even so, there might be some disagreement about values.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

Maybe some Jews don't feel a responsibility to not break the chain or don't care about their religion of origin just as some people of other religions don't care about theirs.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read this whole thread but “having a bar mitzvah” has no actual significance in Jewish law— it’s the equivalent of a quinceanara, sweet sixteen or HS grad party— a marking of a milestone reached but the milestone occurs regardless of whether it’s marked or not.

And I truly can’t see how forcing a kid to prepare for a bar mitzvah is going to make them identify more with Judaism. If they aren’t intrinsically motivated to identify as Jewish and participate in the rituals, creating unpleasant dynamics around Jewish ritual certainly isn’t going to help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

Isn’t being taught to sometimes compromise your desires a good thing? Can you imagine a world where no one compromised their desires? Why would you want to raise your kids that way? They will be unprepared for the real world and unable to cope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

I’m a non-Jew and understand where you’re coming from. However, a few things to point out.

First is that this child is likely living in a secular world and will be judging his life and parents through a secular lens. It makes sense that OP might want to consider these viewpoints.

Second I wouldn’t assume that a non-Jew can’t empathize or have some sort of understanding about what this decision means. There are plenty of other religions with similar types of events and traditions. It seems ignorant to assume this isn’t the case.

Third, the bolded is mean and discriminatory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a different poster, but I suggest as I did earlier here that we Jewe stop engaging with non-Jews about Jewish concerns. It is clear that they just don't understand what is at stake or appreciate our thousands of years-long project and the responsibility each of us has to not break the chain.

So where should these questions be discussed? I think we need a more appropriate forum, where Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants won't butt in with their completely contradictory values? It would also be good to have a place where Jew-hating dog whistles aren't tolerated. That hasn't been an issue on this thread, but it has been on others and Jeff just doesn't hear the whistles.

I’m a non-Jew and understand where you’re coming from. However, a few things to point out.

First is that this child is likely living in a secular world and will be judging his life and parents through a secular lens. It makes sense that OP might want to consider these viewpoints.

Second I wouldn’t assume that a non-Jew can’t empathize or have some sort of understanding about what this decision means. There are plenty of other religions with similar types of events and traditions. It seems ignorant to assume this isn’t the case.

Third, the bolded is mean and discriminatory.

DP. In all sincerity, how is "Protestants and their secular intellectual descendants" mean or discriminatory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

Isn’t being taught to sometimes compromise your desires a good thing? Can you imagine a world where no one compromised their desires? Why would you want to raise your kids that way? They will be unprepared for the real world and unable to cope.

Sure, compromising your desires can be a good thing --but not necessarily and maybe not in this case. Plus, the kid can always get Bar-Mitzphad later if he wants to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say up front that I am not Jewish, but I empathize with OP. The boy seems to not actively dislike the religion, it’s more that he is uncomfortable being the center of attention during the service and party? We have a tradition in my (Hindu) faith which is kind of similar in that it marks the start of adulthood, though it does not require study. I would feel unhappy if either of my children refused to do it for a non-legit reason. If I am being honest, I would probably bribe them somehow so as not to miss the opportunity. I wouldn’t be able to let it go and be like “whatever, they’re American now”.

Yes, 13yos should be allowed to have personal choice, but if those beliefs are not strong (like saying I believe this religion is immoral) they should be willing to suck it up and put a smile on their face for one day to make their parents happy. Just like their parents sacrifice loads of time and energy to make *them* happy. Just like in the future, they’ll have to do things to make their own children and partner happy. 13 is old enough to understand that.

Agreed. Teaching kid to do hard things even when they don’t want to do them is preparing for life as an adult. Teaching them to be part of a community, teaches them communal responsibility.

Teaches kids to compromise their own desires for the desires of their parents.

Forces kids to look at something presented as a gateway to adulthood as like other things their parents force them to do because they are children who don't really know what's best for themselves.

Presumes kids will thank parents later for forcing them to do something that they do not want to do.

I’m very sorry that you have so much trauma and contempt for your parents/childhood. You have a lot to work through. If parents let their 12-13 olds “quit” all of their activities and communities and identities, kids would devolve into a 24 diet of YouTube videos, tween social media side eye, and sundry. It’s ok to encourage your kids to stick with things, to do hard things, to go outside themselves. They may not thank you later. But they may understand you later.

The issue is not quitting all their activities, communities and identities at age 12-13; the issue is not being forced to participate in a religious ceremony that is meaningless to the child.

Also, there's no need to be sorry for me - I don't have trauma or contempt for my parents/childhood. I didn't think much about religious rites of passage then and just went along with things. My parents weren't very religious either, but they went along too.

Uh-huh. No one who is centering themselves in a minority religion discussion as much as you are is without some serious mommy and daddy issues.

I disagree, but if so, your reasoning would apply to you, too. There must be serious parental issues if you engage with people like me about your religion.

Possibly, my parents are shrinks - so they taught me how to spot hyper vigilant narcissists like you at a young age. Happy healing.

DP. Child of two shrinks. That explains it.

Shrinks know that you can't diagnose people on line. Maybe if they saw this conversation they would tell their kid that they come across as foolish.

Hah. I showed them this thread and they said our clinical diagnosis is what a narcissistic a$$hole.