Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

A random guy is walking down the street near me. I don’t automatically consider him a danger. Most men (and women) are not violent.

Stereotypes are causing you to live in fear of half of the population. Stereotypes stink.

I find gay men to be among the most dangerous, so no. Men who are not willing for whatever reason to live in accord with women are dangerous IMO.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

A random guy is walking down the street near me. I don’t automatically consider him a danger. Most men (and women) are not violent.

Stereotypes are causing you to live in fear of half of the population. Stereotypes stink.

What part of relative do you not understand?

You're being willfully obtuse. Yawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

A random guy is walking down the street near me. I don’t automatically consider him a danger. Most men (and women) are not violent.

Stereotypes are causing you to live in fear of half of the population. Stereotypes stink.

You are unbelievably lucky to be able to survive whilst suppressing normal human instincts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Happiness defined how and by whom?

Women and men shouldn’t strive for equality because of someone else’s sense of their happiness? Very patriarchal POV.

I'm not sure that's even what we're doing anymore. Is reading the Lord of the Rings through a critical feminist lens "striving for equality?" That's a long way from equal pay, securing credit cards, and eliminating marital rape. At least some feminism seems to amount to navel gazing.

I was a women's and gender studies major and completely agree with you. As an academic discipline I really enjoyed it b/c it was exposure to a different worldview and I found that it helped structure the liberal arts experience. With so many difference classes to take having the lens of sex and gender to unify them was helpful for me.

But taking that worldview (which is fundamentally about marxist power-differentials) and applying it to every aspect of your life is an incredibly monolithic way of thinking and damaging in the real-world if you insist on viewing everything through the lens of potential power-dynamics. It's not that there isn't any truth to it, but good luck to you if that's going to be foundational to your identity as an individual, spouse and parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

Men on Reddit seem to desperately want to believe that women (especially single childfree women) are miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

But it wasn’t 50 years ago, which was your first argument. Moving the goalposts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Self-confident women don’t want “traditionalism”. That’s a mechanism to control women.

I have a “traditional” marriage there is nothing controlling about it. It was my choice. I have a very good life;

Your poor kids.

Why my poor kids?

Reinforced stereotypes & lack of role models.

How is this reinforcing stereotypes? I like being there/picking kids when kids up from school. I like entertaining/hosting/cooking. I enjoy spoiling my husband and he enjoys spoiling me, we have fun and have a great marriage.

Why I am I not role model? I was successful very young, DH is successful, there is no need for both of us to work. Prioritizing, my family time and doing things I enjoy has improved my mental health dramatically. I am not lazy and sitting around all day watching TV, drinking wine, eating cake.

We are specs in a huge universe, outside of very small group of people no one is gong to remember what we did in our careers or care what we accomplished. And in 1000 years even the legacy of current presidents will be mostly unknown.
Having a career outside of the home doesn’t make you a role model. Being a kind, empathetic and well rounded person is the type of role model I fell that I am.

Your kids are learning that women take care of the kids/home/cooking and men work and “spoil” their families. They don’t see you as an independent, successful person. You are an accessory to your DH.

You are happy with your choices, but you are reinforcing stereotypes and not providing a role model of a strong, independent woman.

Do you think an income separate from your husbands is the only thing that makes you independent. How am I not successful, is have it a job outside of the home the only thing that makes someone successful?

I am no one’s “accessory”. And if you read what I wrote; I said we spoil each other in different ways, I didn’t say what those way were, so stop jumping to conclusions.

You have a very narrow minded view of what can take place in a loving, respectful marriage where roles were disused and expectations were mutual agreed upon. We communicated all of this openly.

Traditional roles that reinforce the gender stereotypes.

You’d be independent if you had your own life with significant responsibilities/achievements outside of the home. But you’ve limited your role to inside your home.

What is with all of the assumptions? What significant responsibilities do you have that I don't? You have no idea what my achievements are. My role is not limited to inside the house, I handle a lot of the day to day stuff, but I am not chained to the house by any means.

Who does the cooking, cleaning, laundry, doctor appts, etc?

Your kids see what they see. “Traditional roles” just reinforce gender stereotypes.

I cook and clean because I enjoy it. DH cooks when we larger outdoor parties, for indoor or seated meal events we split though I do most of it. Frequently we both go to kids Drs appointments together. But as I don’t work it makes sense for me to take them and really isn’t a big deal. They don’t have drs appointments everyday.

If you want to judge me based on stereotypes fine, but I hope you stereotype everyone. Then let me know how that works for you.

Kids are naturally bonded to moms because they lived inside of them for months and then most relied on their boobs for nourishment/survival. Maybe when men start lactating we can have a different conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

I think that's reasonable qualitative data. Not to mention we have a multi-decade mainstream phenomenon called the 'mommy wars,' and everyone knows exactly what it's referring to. Objectively it's absurd, but betrays a deeper level of mass neurosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

But it wasn’t 50 years ago, which was your first argument. Moving the goalposts.

Nah, just a mistake in reading. You were saying I was incorrect about when marital rape ended. I thought you were responding in some sense to my question about the impact of feminism in the last 25 years, but upon re-reading I see that you weren't commenting on that question one way or another. My mistake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

Honestly, the forums here and Reddit are a big part of my sense. When discussing anything to do with men and women, gender, relationships, marriage, sex, and pretty much any aspect of society as differentiated based on gender, the women offering commentary seem to range from sad or disappointed all the way to furious. Whatever progress has been made doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

Men on Reddit seem to desperately want to believe that women (especially single childfree women) are miserable.

Are you happier than your mothers and grandmothers?

I'm a guy and think I'm way happier than my father and grandfather were. I think I have feminism to thank for at least some of that. I spend more time with my kids both because it's more expected and my wife's job/income gives me more time to do so. I'm more free to show emotion other than anger. I'm less focused on proving my masculinity.

But I'm not sure that my wife, sisters, or mother are any happier with their lot in life than my grandmother was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

A random guy is walking down the street near me. I don’t automatically consider him a danger. Most men (and women) are not violent.

Stereotypes are causing you to live in fear of half of the population. Stereotypes stink.

Dark street, late at night.

Left sidewalk, there's a guy with tattoos.

Right sidewalk, there's an old lady.

If you choose to walk on the left, you're a moron.

[Anonymous]

Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

As of Feb 28, 2023, the average annual pay for a Male in the United States is $37,307 a year.

The average man is broke AF.

[Anonymous]

Women aren’t womanly anymore, but men are expected to be manly.