Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

Sorry--I was being sarcastic which never translates well online. I am not shitting on the choice to work outside the home. In the context of this particular thread, however, there is a lot of disdain towards domestic work and the general idea of relying on others for your well-being. As humans, we litterally cannot be emotionally healthy without relying on the support of others and having others rely on our support and not have some degree of mental health fall-out.

For anyone who is interested in the way that attachment dysfunction affect our relationships with our families, husbands, kids, friends, etc, I highly recommend listening to this podcast:

https://www.podbean.com/pu/pbblog-8zaam-d06ccd

Since this site leans to the political left, before someone beats me to it I will say that the woman who does this podcast is socially and politically conservative . In most episodes that worldview is really relevant to the discussion but in this particular episide it's not. She interviews a psycholigst who specializes in attachemnt theory for adults (usually we associate it just with kids) and how it affects our relationships. I found it both personally and intellectually fascinating and would recommend it to anyone interested in better understanding how/why people treat us certain ways and why we consciously/subconsciously treat other people as we do. At the very end, he offers some new-to-me advice for how women can re-establish stronger partner bonds with their husbands.

No, it’s a dislike for unbalanced domestic work and support. When responsibilities are determined by your sex organs.

How “women” can establish stronger bonds with “men”? Sounds like some sexist bullcrap.

Um, this is a relationship forum. Women are on here everyday asking for advice on how to improve their marriages.

*People* are on here asking for advice. God knows why - bunch of misogyny and ignorance on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

Yeah. Your kids aren't going to wipe your ass. Either way some paid stranger will be doing so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

Yeah. Your kids aren't going to wipe your ass. Either way some paid stranger will be doing so.

My point was that there won’t be enough paid strangers to do so in assisted living, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

Yeah. Your kids aren't going to wipe your ass. Either way some paid stranger will be doing so.

Sure there will. Immigrants. You don't think a white native-born American was going to be doing this, right?
My point was that there won’t be enough paid strangers to do so in assisted living, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Happiness defined how and by whom?

Women and men shouldn’t strive for equality because of someone else’s sense of their happiness? Very patriarchal POV.

I'm not sure that's even what we're doing anymore. Is reading the Lord of the Rings through a critical feminist lens "striving for equality?" That's a long way from equal pay, securing credit cards, and eliminating marital rape. At least some feminism seems to amount to navel gazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

Yeah. Your kids aren't going to wipe your ass. Either way some paid stranger will be doing so.

Sure there will. Immigrants. You don't think a white native-born American was going to be doing this, right?
My point was that there won’t be enough paid strangers to do so in assisted living, either.

Birthrates are way down everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

Which was more than 25 years ago. And those states were outliers by that time. None of which answers the question about whether feminism has been making the lives of women happier or less happy over the last 25 years despite my anecdotal (and possibly incorrect) sense that - in terms of gender issues, women seem miserable.

What do you base this on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

Good until you’re in assisted living.

You have kids so you won’t be lonely in 40 years? Sounds like a great reason.

Yeah. Your kids aren't going to wipe your ass. Either way some paid stranger will be doing so.

Sure there will. Immigrants. You don't think a white native-born American was going to be doing this, right?
My point was that there won’t be enough paid strangers to do so in assisted living, either.

Birthrates are way down everywhere.

Don’t worry, not everywhere. There are enough children being born in Chad, Mali, and Central African Republic to wipe the asses of the whole world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Happiness defined how and by whom?

Women and men shouldn’t strive for equality because of someone else’s sense of their happiness? Very patriarchal POV.

I'm not sure that's even what we're doing anymore. Is reading the Lord of the Rings through a critical feminist lens "striving for equality?" That's a long way from equal pay, securing credit cards, and eliminating marital rape. At least some feminism seems to amount to navel gazing.

No. We’re talking about equality in expectations and responsibilities in real life - relationships, parenting, households, careers, etc.

Gender stereotypes prevent us from moving forward in gender equality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

Yes, being aware of surroundings means trusting their gut and observing anything out of the ordinary. It’d also be weird if a woman was creeping at the playground.

Just because someone has a penis doesn’t automatically make them a suspect. “Men” as a category aren’t a risk. Individual people who do bad things are a risk. Some are men, some are women.

Are more men than women, though?

The initial point was about the relative danger posed by a man before a dangerous act has been committed. Not the generic, nothing statements you are offering.

You are asking people to engage in the risk calculus in a particular situation after the bad thing has been done. Weird way to go about it, but whatever works for you.

A random guy is walking down the street near me. I don’t automatically consider him a danger. Most men (and women) are not violent.

Stereotypes are causing you to live in fear of half of the population. Stereotypes stink.