An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant from India. While India and Pakistan - both are third world countries, women are encouraged to become educated in all fields - Humanities, Liberal Arts, STEM - in India. I am used to seeing so many professional women in India, even in fields that are traditionally male dominated (in armed forces, commercial pilots, police, STEM), that I feel the struggles of an educated, working, urban mom in India is very similar to that of a working, educated, urban mom in this country. Namely, how to balance home-work life, especially when children are involved.

OP, I am glad that you are happy working and appreciate the opportunity to be financially independent. Your feelings of gratefulness for working has been informed by the upbringing that you had where you were pigeonholed into a role. This kind of financial freedom you talk about has been afforded to women in many societies, where civil liberties are granted to people regardless of gender, religion, age, sexual orientation, disability etc. That is the purpose of a true democracy.

I wanted to add that I have many friends in India who transitioned from working to being SAHMs. Every woman wants to do what is best for their family. Sometimes it is to be a SAHM and sometimes it is to be a WOHM. I am happy that I had this choice in India and also in US.

The struggles of an educated, working, urban mom in India (and in Pakistan, for that matter) are somewhat mitigated by two things: 1) an expectation that a working woman should have domestic help, and 2) availability of moderately priced domestic help that makes it available to the middle classes, not just the upper classes.

My husband is from the Gulf. Despite the many limitations on women's rights in his country, there is one thing that I appreciate about the culture, and it is the expectation that if a woman works, she needs maids and nannies. No one (at least in his family) expects that a woman will work AS WELL AS cook, clean and take care of babies. In fact, even SAHMs of middle class families and above are expected to have domestic help. My MIL was aghast that we don't have any live-in help, and I explained to her that it's too expensive in the U.S. She was unhappy for me that I have to work AND take care of the house. She said it's too much. My MIL is illiterate and never worked outside the home a day in her life. Yet she is of a firm conviction that if you work, you need help at home and there's no shame in getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Only a very small minority of American women has the choice to stay home. Get of our UMC bubble and meet women who HAVE to work to put food on the table.

[Anonymous]

Didn't read through the 12 pages. But just wanted to chime in and say that I come from Pakistani immigrants. OP's view of Pakistan is over generalized (my first female cousins come from hard working middle class families that went to government schools and somehow landed in amazing medical schools like DOW. Some are practicing medicine in Karachi, while another is applying for residencies in America). Sure, there is a 1%, whose life consists of waiting to see what Sana Safinaz's new line of lawn clothes looks like. But that's not the rest of Pakistan. Not the Pakistan I grew up with.

OP, I don't think you understand that most women work because they HAVE TO. They do it for their kids. If I had the choice, I would be home with my son. I missed his first crawl, his first word, all while I'm at work sneaking in two 20 minute pump breaks so my child could have enough food for the next day. I've been the sole breadwinner in my family while my husband finishes up a fellowship. I pay the bills, I take care of our kids, I cook/clean, and hope that there is 15 minutes left in the day so I could take a shower. So do I envy SAHM sometimes? Sure. Do I feel fulfilled with the work I'm doing out of the house, but still thinking about everything that needs to be done in the house? No, not really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

+1 I have done all: sahm, wohm, wahm, PT work: I AM SOOO GRATEFUL THAT IN THIS COUNTRY I HAVE THESE CHOICES, and my DH is supportive of them. I am also an immigrant, btw from a mysoginistic country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lovely post, OP. Not sure why everyone is deliberately missing the point of it. I read the OP as saying that she is happy to work because she recognizes the privilege of being able to work. I think the perspective she is intending to bring to the SAHM/WOHM debate is that there are people who cannot choose. You may say that here in the US there are also people who cannot choose, they have to WOHM. I believe that the OP said this was also true of lower income people in Pakistan. But for middle class/upper middle class/upper class people, in the US, there is a choice. In Pakistan, there is not. That is the point that is being made. I think it is interesting.

There is choice! Pakistani society is very diverse depending on your economic structure, and there are all kind of choices avaiable or not, just like any other country.

This. As a Pakistani (married to an Indian) I can tell you that professional women in those countries have far more support than working women in America. They outnumber men in colleges and grad schools and when they work they have domestic help as well as relatives who can carry the load at home. In fact, an Indian friend of mine in New York is an investment banker and her mother (a very successful executive with a multinational in India) retired and moved to NYC when my friend had her first baby so that she could oversee her daughter's home and the care of her child. It's a perfect set up -- the daughter is enjoying a flourishing career and the mother has just retired from one and is consulting now so she can still flex her intellectual muscles.

AND let me remind you: India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have ALL had female heads of state and look what heck we are giving to a woman trying to become ours.

I don't know whether I feel fury at or pity for the "OP".

American here, just wanted to know that I found this post inspiring. I really wish we had this sort of strong family culture like this here in the US, it would enrich so many lives if we did. I'm hoping that my husband and I will be able to provide this kind of support system for our own daughter and grandkids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

Agree.

Signed,
SAHM, daughter of Indian immigrant mother of the 60s who was well educated and worked everyday until her death. But my parents came here so I could have a choice, that's what they loved about this country. I've gotten a great education, I've worked, I'm currently SAH, I volunteer for charities I feel strongly about and I will probably go back to work part time in a couple of years. I have choices.

[Anonymous]

Ugh. Had to give up my career to care for my severely special needs child and devote myself to his needs and wants, doctors appointments and therapy sessions almost every week day. Husband is a surgeon who works long hours, but provides excellent income and health benefits for our family.

But thanks for telling me that I have no dignity, OP. I'll remember that the next time I'm wiping the butt of my ten year old kid.

[Anonymous]

Can't this thread die, already? OP sounds like a moron who can't fathom that different choices work for different people. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

that's ok PP there are plenty of people who judge you, too, for your life choices. That's the beauty of America - women have the freedom to judge each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can't this thread die, already? OP sounds like a moron who can't fathom that different choices work for different people. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

I think it's because OP comes from a background where women don't have choices, so she can't fathom why anyone would choose to live the way most of the women do in her country.

Welcome to America, OP.. land of opportunities and choices, but not always because life can throw you a curve ball, and some people don't have choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

You get it.