Parents of boys who became incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

We shouldn't set up unfair advantages based on gender and then tell the losers that "life isn't fair" because then they will reject your entire concept for how society should run. Then they become vulnerable to influence by bad people on the fringes.

Or they could do like women and POCs have aalways least done and work harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

[Anonymous]

NP Unfortunately the problem of Online Radicalization and other problems catches middle-aged men too. COVID was not good for that coupled with a predisposition for depression and newborns/toddlers at home. My own DH got caught in a web of constant Reddit and now spends 2+ hours weekdays, 4+ weekends on Reddit forums. From a highly gender egalitarian, liberal soul, he became a hater of DEI, anti-immigration, pro white right-wing lover. Plus even more depressed, socially isolated and angry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Out of 340 million people, there are some bad apples. That does not mean that we “haven’t solved the problem of teaching boys” anything.

That’s absurd.

Do you think we’ve solved it? Because our rape statistics are appalling and on the other end of the rapist spectrum you have the incels. You think this is something as a society we’ve solved?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP Unfortunately the problem of Online Radicalization and other problems catches middle-aged men too. COVID was not good for that coupled with a predisposition for depression and newborns/toddlers at home. My own DH got caught in a web of constant Reddit and now spends 2+ hours weekdays, 4+ weekends on Reddit forums. From a highly gender egalitarian, liberal soul, he became a hater of DEI, anti-immigration, pro white right-wing lover. Plus even more depressed, socially isolated and angry.

Similar story here, only with podcasts. My formerly fairly liberal husband has gone full on Joe Rogan. It's like someone stole his brain and morality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That is all fine and well. I am talking about the personal impact and resulting feelings about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That is all fine and well. I am talking about the personal impact and resulting feelings about it.

I get that they’re hurt, my point is just they’re not being rational in their blame. And sure, hurt feelings are rarely rational, but assuming that a company with a prestigious internship took “less qualified” staff in order to “help them” really isn’t rational.

It has nothing to do with their grandmothers lack of opportunities, it has nothing to do with (their perception) that they performed better, it is truly just down to what a company thinks will make more money. I hope you’re teaching your sons to look critically at their assumptions. Your 20 y/o is absolutely capable of that level of understanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

If it was really 20 boys to 3 girls applying, then this must be a massively male-dominated field in which women have been passed over in favor of less qualified men for decades. The old boys club and all. Perhaps the way it made him feel will help him understand why they instituted gender specifications for this.

Or, less girls are interested. I don’t think girls today are impacted by their grandmothers’ opportunities. They seem smart, motivated, and not intimidated. If they aren’t interested, they won’t apply. If they are interested, they will.

Just WOW. It's fewer girls not less.

I know we are going backwards in every way, but it's still amazing to see it unfold right in front of you. I'm sure you think black people weren't interested either. Right?

How are we going backwards in every way? Aren’t girls out performing boys in high school and college? If the girls are interested, they’ll show interest. They aren’t afraid.

Agree. Girls going backwards? The PP who suggested that is clearly smoking something (or, mainlining NPR, more likely).

Women both apply to and graduate from university at a far higher percentage than boys.

Biden absolutely GUTTED Title IX, which protects the rights of women and girls. President Trump restored it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

We shouldn't set up unfair advantages based on gender and then tell the losers that "life isn't fair" because then they will reject your entire concept for how society should run. Then they become vulnerable to influence by bad people on the fringes.

Or they could do like women and POCs have aalways least done and work harder.

Apparently working harder is not the answer or else we wouldn’t need quotas and carve outs for skin color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That’s what corporations said about women and black people 100 years ago. It was wrong than just like it is wrong now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That is all fine and well. I am talking about the personal impact and resulting feelings about it.

I get that they’re hurt, my point is just they’re not being rational in their blame. And sure, hurt feelings are rarely rational, but assuming that a company with a prestigious internship took “less qualified” staff in order to “help them” really isn’t rational.

It has nothing to do with their grandmothers lack of opportunities, it has nothing to do with (their perception) that they performed better, it is truly just down to what a company thinks will make more money. I hope you’re teaching your sons to look critically at their assumptions. Your 20 y/o is absolutely capable of that level of understanding.

Making more money is not the same as acting in an ethical manner. Anyone should be outraged about corporations exploiting racial and gender differences just to make a profit. It’s destroying our society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That’s what corporations said about women and black people 100 years ago. It was wrong than just like it is wrong now.

The data says it’s not wrong. Diverse boards make more money. Diverse teams are more profitable. It’s been studied at length.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one clear message on which we can all agree, form this whole incel thing, is:

- boys need to be far more educated and raised as feminists. It is the antidote to toxic masculinity. I am talking to you, boy-moms.

It is more complicated than that. I have to be sympathetic to their perceptions since THEY seem to be bearing the brunt of the mistakes and bad behavior of generations of men before them. My boys know and have been told about the inequities in history (not just towards women but other cultural groups and races). They know to stand up for people. But all they know is the life they are living and struggling through themselves.

For example, my oldest's college roommate (boys) worked for weeks on a presentation for a prestigious internship position. There were spots for 2 boys and 2 girls from their school. There were about 20 boys and 3 girls who applied. His roommate did not get it despite being very qualified (grades, ecs etc) but one of the girls who got it had actually ran out of the presentation room in tears due to nerves. This really upset my feminist-raised ds on behalf of his roommate. It isn't going to make them the next Joe Rogans or anything but it doesn't engender empathy.

It is easy to say raise them that way but they face so many other factors and situations outside of the home especially as they get older - peers, reality, internet, other adults and leaders, etc.

Weird example, as it’s just a numbers game here. This shouldn’t have anything to do with feminism or empathy—just, sometimes life’s not fair. You can’t always get what you want, and all that.

It feels like everyone is constantly looking for someone to blame for every single disappointment, rather than shrugging it off and looking for a different opportunity.

I see this example went over your head. In their minds the competition should be for 4 positions total without gender specifications. They know intellectually why there is such a thing but when they see how they are disadvantaged personally and in a specific way, it is not reality to think a 20yo guy would say "ok well I understand that since women my grandmother's age would not have had the same chances as men 60 years ago, then my classmate who is a girl should take this spot even though I performed better than she did." It doesn't help the girls either. And it makes men/boys more susceptible to victimhood thinking, deserved or not. Even as a 'feminist' who has raised awareness and non-entitled thinking in my boys growing up, I can see why they might feel this way.

They need to go back to their textbooks and try harder then, especially if this is in a field that hopes to make significant money. More gender diversity is linked to greater profitability, and prestigious internships are bottom line about… the bottom line. This is the kind of thing bright college students with great ecs and good grades learn, right?

https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/featured%20insights/diversity%20and%20inclusion/diversity%20wins%20how%20inclusion%20matters/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters-vf.pdf

I don't disagree and I don't think they would either, intellectually. But as a practical matter it is hard to swallow and I can see why there would be resentment about the process. It is one thing to be ideological and aspirational but it is another when it impacts you and your future personally, especially 20yo guys. The don't see girls or women as inferior or needing extra help or what have you at all. Especially college women.

It’s not ideological or aspirational: it’s just about money. More diverse teams are more profitable. Companies with gender diverse boards make more money. So yeah this company (in a clearly male dominated field) wants women more than they want a third-best guy. They’re not doing it to “help” anyone.

That is all fine and well. I am talking about the personal impact and resulting feelings about it.

I get that they’re hurt, my point is just they’re not being rational in their blame. And sure, hurt feelings are rarely rational, but assuming that a company with a prestigious internship took “less qualified” staff in order to “help them” really isn’t rational.

It has nothing to do with their grandmothers lack of opportunities, it has nothing to do with (their perception) that they performed better, it is truly just down to what a company thinks will make more money. I hope you’re teaching your sons to look critically at their assumptions. Your 20 y/o is absolutely capable of that level of understanding.

Making more money is not the same as acting in an ethical manner. Anyone should be outraged about corporations exploiting racial and gender differences just to make a profit. It’s destroying our society.

These boys wanted to work at this company— I assume to make money? That’s ethical, but the company acting in a way to maximize their profits isn’t? The boys could go become public school teachers and help struggling young men if that’s their mission in life and what they hope to achieve in their careers— it’s not the role of the company to take a profit hit to cater to them.