Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Way too many women (mostly women) depend on pleasing sexist men to keep power over POC.

POC = People of Color?

Yikes! That's a minefield, if so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Way too many women (mostly women) depend on pleasing sexist men to keep power over POC.

LOL, this hot take brought to you by social media influencers with the IQ of a hedgehog and no real life experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way too many women (mostly women) depend on pleasing sexist men to keep power over POC.

LOL, this hot take brought to you by social media influencers with the IQ of a hedgehog and no real life experience.

A nice additional attempt to paint white women as the devil. Take your hateful crap elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

1st wave Feminism sought to address some material problems that women faced as a result of the industrial revolution as worked shifted out of the home and into factories. 2nd wave feminism primarily sought to address the psycholgical fall-out of motherhood in the context of the 1940-60s social model. But why was their so much depression among housewives? Was it b/c domestic life iteself is inherently meaningless? If so, then moving into the working place and living our lives along more traditionally masculine roles would have improved the quality of our emotional lives. But if the underlying problem wasn't domestic life itself but the atomization of the individual and the family (i.e. loss of communcal life and reliance on a tight network of kin and friends) then moving into the workplace wasn't (and I would argue hasn't) solved the real problem. The way our society is set up (every man/woman for him and herself) fosters dysfunctional attachement between men and women.

I agree. Technology replaces people is the bigger issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that men are still held to traditional standards (be a high-earning provider), but women aren’t. Competition has increased exponentially for men in the dating and labor markets. Fewer women are having kids, so that means fewer are taking time off from work, therefore more competition for women.

By people who cling to traditional gender roles.

By everyone. Women want partners who make more than them, are fit and are handy. Those are traditional standards.

Not by everyone. I want an equal partner in finances as well as household/childcare responsibilities. This is common in my circles.

If one of you earns an S ton, is it really necessary for both to work? Labor in the relationship should be equal, but both partners don’t need to have equal input in each division of labor. One person earns while one person takes car of kids, one person maintain the house while person cleans, one person cooks while one person does the shopping. Why would both people do the same thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that men are still held to traditional standards (be a high-earning provider), but women aren’t. Competition has increased exponentially for men in the dating and labor markets. Fewer women are having kids, so that means fewer are taking time off from work, therefore more competition for women.

By people who cling to traditional gender roles.

By everyone. Women want partners who make more than them, are fit and are handy. Those are traditional standards.

Not by everyone. I want an equal partner in finances as well as household/childcare responsibilities. This is common in my circles.

If one of you earns an S ton, is it really necessary for both to work? Labor in the relationship should be equal, but both partners don’t need to have equal input in each division of labor. One person earns while one person takes car of kids, one person maintain the house while person cleans, one person cooks while one person does the shopping. Why would both people do the same thing?

Because divorces happen, average child support and alimony paid out in practice are very low, I want to be an independent adult and deserve to aspire to career achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Perpetuating them how? Who would be impacted besides kids really? And my boys are 1000x more respectful of woman than 99% of the boys their age including ones with both parents working have “careers”. Kids know why I stay at home, it makes sense for our family and many aspects of it appeal to me. They also know that I had a great job before meeting DH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that men are still held to traditional standards (be a high-earning provider), but women aren’t. Competition has increased exponentially for men in the dating and labor markets. Fewer women are having kids, so that means fewer are taking time off from work, therefore more competition for women.

By people who cling to traditional gender roles.

By everyone. Women want partners who make more than them, are fit and are handy. Those are traditional standards.

Not by everyone. I want an equal partner in finances as well as household/childcare responsibilities. This is common in my circles.

“Equal” partners in everything is a myth.

I’ll go tell that to all of our friends with “equal partners”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that men are still held to traditional standards (be a high-earning provider), but women aren’t. Competition has increased exponentially for men in the dating and labor markets. Fewer women are having kids, so that means fewer are taking time off from work, therefore more competition for women.

By people who cling to traditional gender roles.

By everyone. Women want partners who make more than them, are fit and are handy. Those are traditional standards.

Not by everyone. I want an equal partner in finances as well as household/childcare responsibilities. This is common in my circles.

If one of you earns an S ton, is it really necessary for both to work? Labor in the relationship should be equal, but both partners don’t need to have equal input in each division of labor. One person earns while one person takes car of kids, one person maintain the house while person cleans, one person cooks while one person does the shopping. Why would both people do the same thing?

It’s not totally about the money. It’s about contributing to society outside of the family unit. Could be a substantial volunteer job. Work for great non-profit. It goes beyond hobbies.

And, in the home, it’s the equal responsibility for the kids & household. Maybe not hour-to-hour match every week but either parent can and has handled any one of the responsibilities. Cooking, fixing the toilet, meeting with teachers, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Wrong. Marital rape was outlawed in the last state only in 1993.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Perpetuating them how? Who would be impacted besides kids really? And my boys are 1000x more respectful of woman than 99% of the boys their age including ones with both parents working have “careers”. Kids know why I stay at home, it makes sense for our family and many aspects of it appeal to me. They also know that I had a great job before meeting DH.

Perpetuating the stereotypes with your kids.

Everyone should be respectful of everyone. That isn’t a “boy” thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

25 years ago things were much different for women and men in the workforce.

Fortunately, many people aren’t stuck on “traditional roles” so the environment continues to improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Happiness defined how and by whom?

Women and men shouldn’t strive for equality because of someone else’s sense of their happiness? Very patriarchal POV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

Good. Earth is overpopulated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Way too many women (mostly women) depend on pleasing sexist men to keep power over POC.

Power over everyone who isn’t a white man.