What is the End Game in Ukraine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

In what way was the Russian position in Istanbul unrealistic? They offered to retreat to pre-invasion lines (tabling Crimea and Donetsk for 15 years) in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality. Both sides confirmed it was Ukraine that walked away from the table.

I don’t remember exactly but one or more of their conditions were clearly unacceptable to Ukrainians and both sides knew it

[Anonymous]

Make money and win votes
When was it ever different

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

Do you need a reminder that the Crimea takeover was briefly bloodless?

Says who? Putin…lol

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

There have been all sorts of reports of women being raped, property seized, and yes, murders. What fantasy land are you living in?

[Anonymous]

Is Russia buying Chinese rockets from North Korea or buying back it's own rockets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

In what way was the Russian position in Istanbul unrealistic? They offered to retreat to pre-invasion lines (tabling Crimea and Donetsk for 15 years) in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality. Both sides confirmed it was Ukraine that walked away from the table.

This.

There was plenty of scope to reach a sensible agreement and to delay the crisis 15-20 years. But the US didn't allow the Ukranians to even consider it. Biden wants his little war -- at Europe's blood & suffering of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Zelensky has to hit his number. Then there will be peace

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

In what way was the Russian position in Istanbul unrealistic? They offered to retreat to pre-invasion lines (tabling Crimea and Donetsk for 15 years) in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality. Both sides confirmed it was Ukraine that walked away from the table.

This.

There was plenty of scope to reach a sensible agreement and to delay the crisis 15-20 years. But the US didn't allow the Ukranians to even consider it. Biden wants his little war -- at Europe's blood & suffering of course.

The real winners are Raytheon, Boeing and L3Harris who all lobbied against negotiated settlement. Can't let this chunk of biz dev go, can we? ISW is earning its keep too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

In what way was the Russian position in Istanbul unrealistic? They offered to retreat to pre-invasion lines (tabling Crimea and Donetsk for 15 years) in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality. Both sides confirmed it was Ukraine that walked away from the table.

I don’t remember exactly but one or more of their conditions were clearly unacceptable to Ukrainians and both sides knew it

There are always unacceptable positions in the course of negotiations, that's why they call it negotiating. There's back and forth.

I suppose what was unacceptable to Ukraine was that the West made it clear their support of the country is dependent on them continuing to fight?

Don't negotiate with Russia and we'll continue funding you.

Don't cooperate with Turkey or we'll stop funding you.

[Anonymous]

No, its more like, why should Ukraine cede Crimea? Ukraine has a borders. It is a country. Russia needs to get out.

It's not that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, its more like, why should Ukraine cede Crimea? Ukraine has a borders. It is a country. Russia needs to get out.

It's not that hard.

Crimea is never coming back. Ukraine knows it and the world knows it so there's no point focusing on the unrealistic goals.

I mean is Israel getting out of the West Bank? Nope. A full ocean of Palestinian tears won't change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, its more like, why should Ukraine cede Crimea? Ukraine has a borders. It is a country. Russia needs to get out.

It's not that hard.

Crimea is never coming back. Ukraine knows it and the world knows it so there's no point focusing on the unrealistic goals.

I mean is Israel getting out of the West Bank? Nope. A full ocean of Palestinian tears won't change that.

If the US armed the Palestinians..

[Anonymous]

Things must be going worse for Russia during this counter-offensive than we think.

Every time this thread, or one of the others, pops back up it's just before they fall on their faces again.

I for one welcome these spasmodic returns. It smells like victory in the air.

[Anonymous]

The Ukrainians have had a significant military breakthrough today. Russians are fleeing in certain parts of the country. Perhaps the rout to the Dnieper is on!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, its more like, why should Ukraine cede Crimea? Ukraine has a borders. It is a country. Russia needs to get out.

It's not that hard.

Crimea is never coming back. Ukraine knows it and the world knows it so there's no point focusing on the unrealistic goals.

I mean is Israel getting out of the West Bank? Nope. A full ocean of Palestinian tears won't change that.

Never say never—history is long. But I suspect Ukraine would settle for something without the peninsula but can’t give up the southern shore. And Russia feels like it needs that southern shore to lock down the Black Sea which has always been its military obsession since C the Great at least. I’ve looked at the map a lot and I just don’t see how anyone can let Russia have that lane bridge they want. It cuts off Ukraine too sharply and leaves Odessa hanging. It’s literally a bridge too far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, its more like, why should Ukraine cede Crimea? Ukraine has a borders. It is a country. Russia needs to get out.

It's not that hard.

Crimea is never coming back. Ukraine knows it and the world knows it so there's no point focusing on the unrealistic goals.

I mean is Israel getting out of the West Bank? Nope. A full ocean of Palestinian tears won't change that.

Never say never—history is long. But I suspect Ukraine would settle for something without the peninsula but can’t give up the southern shore. And Russia feels like it needs that southern shore to lock down the Black Sea which has always been its military obsession since C the Great at least. I’ve looked at the map a lot and I just don’t see how anyone can let Russia have that lane bridge they want. It cuts off Ukraine too sharply and leaves Odessa hanging. It’s literally a bridge too far.

I've said that before like a hundred times...that's exactly what Istanbul talks offered. Retreat to Feb 24 lines, and tabling Crimea/Donetsk for 15 years. They could have had their south back.