What is the End Game in Ukraine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.

So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?

The goal should be to flush Russian spies and shills out of U.S. web forums and require them to spend the rest of their careers working as a telephone-based fundraisers for Ukrainian reconstruction efforts.

You're an example of censorship masquerading as virtue.

And maybe you’re an example of a Russian spy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.


As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Ah, no. Russia and Ukraine (and America) signed an agreement in 1994 guaranteeing that Russia would respect Ukraine’s borders if Ukraine turned its nuclear weapons over to Russia. That didn’t work out well for Ukraine.

Yes the USA should rearm the Ukrainians with nuclear weapons. It is the only login step.

You totally miss the point. Obviously we don’t want Ukraine to have nuclear weapons. The point is it’s nonsensical to expect Russia to respect its signed agreements to respect another country’s borders. Is that simple enough for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Ukranians are dying because of US' imperialism and incompetent foreign policy (combined, true, with Putin's own imperialism)
Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Ukranians are dying because of US' imperialism and incompetent foreign policy (combined, true, with Putin's own imperialism)
Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

You clearly don't know Ukrainians. It is Americans who are for a piece of McDonald sell their soul to anyone, and if you give them couple free paychecks, forgive their student loan, you can count on their votes 100%. Ukrainians have pride of their country, they love their land and they will fight for it to the end. You have not seen in what condition people were staying last March-April (no water, no power) and they will gladly return back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.

So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?

Wars are not about moral choice, it is about money. We will laundry as much money as we can because this thing happens once in a century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

In what way was the Russian position in Istanbul unrealistic? They offered to retreat to pre-invasion lines (tabling Crimea and Donetsk for 15 years) in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality. Both sides confirmed it was Ukraine that walked away from the table.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

Do you need a reminder that the Crimea takeover was briefly bloodless?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

Do you need a reminder that the Crimea takeover was briefly bloodless?

Says who? Putin…lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

Do you need a reminder that the Crimea takeover was briefly bloodless?

Says who? Putin…lol

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[Anonymous]

Zelensky has to hit his number. Then there will be peace

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do you need a reminder that the Crimea takeover was briefly bloodless?

Anonymous wrote:
Says who? Putin…lol

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#Human_rights_situation

"According to the United Nations and multiple NGOs, Russia is responsible for multiple human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary detention, forced disappearances and instances of discrimination, including persecution of Crimean Tatars in Crimea since the illegal annexation...

In December 2016, the UN General Assembly voted on a resolution on human rights in occupied Crimea. It called on the Russian Federation "to take all measures necessary to bring an immediate end to all abuses against residents of Crimea, in particular reported discriminatory measures and practices, arbitrary detentions, torture and other cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, and to revoke all discriminatory legislation". It also urged Russia to "immediately release Ukrainian citizens who were unlawfully detained and judged without regard for elementary standards of justice"...

Human Rights Watch reported that pro-Ukrainian activists and journalists had been attacked, abducted, and tortured by self-defense groups.[299] Some Crimeans were simply "disappeared" with no explanation...
Tatars who were opposed to Russian rule have been persecuted, Russian law restricting freedom of speech has been imposed, and the new pro-Russian authorities "liquidated" the Kyiv Patriarchate Orthodox church on the peninsula...

On 12 June 2018, Ukraine lodged a memorandum weighing about 90 kg, consisting of 17,500 pages of text in 29 volumes to the UN's International Court of Justice about racial discrimination by Russian authorities in occupied Crimea and state financing of terrorism by Russian Federation in Donbas..."

It is useful to remember that if Ukraine surrendered to Russia there would be fewer Russian deaths, but there would almost certainly be more Ukrainian deaths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

would you rather live under putin? really? then you do not deserve to be an american

I would if the other choice was living under shelling as my hometown goes from one side of the war to the other, hiding in the basement with no heat or water, hungry and with no end in sight. Would you not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Ukranians are dying because of US' imperialism and incompetent foreign policy (combined, true, with Putin's own imperialism)
Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

DP. Nobody suggested that. It’s the Ukrainians who are going to have no heat and no food this winter, many of them. I bet a lot of them would rather live under Putin than freeze and die of starvation.
It’s just human nature.
I am not saying Putin was right to invade. I am saying there needs to be some self preservation.

You clearly don't know Ukrainians. It is Americans who are for a piece of McDonald sell their soul to anyone, and if you give them couple free paychecks, forgive their student loan, you can count on their votes 100%. Ukrainians have pride of their country, they love their land and they will fight for it to the end. You have not seen in what condition people were staying last March-April (no water, no power) and they will gladly return back.

Let me guess, you are Ukrainian but you are safely abroad and never went there after Feb 24?
Such delusion
And you clearly respect the country that gave you shelter when you were trying to get away from your corrupt and hopeless motherland?