Advice Needed: parents who both work long hours

[Anonymous]

OP- you still reading this? What are you going to do? From skimming these responses it seems they fall into one of two categories (ignoring the mean ones who just want to yell at you or get into stupid debates with each other about cost of living):

1. Hire more household help
2. Cut back on your work (or your DH does)

[Anonymous]

Oh, I’m sorry. I’ve been there, OP. You are probably too busy putting one foot in front of the other to think about where you are going.
You need to take a vacation or even a leave of absence and figure out what you are going to do going forward.

Even if you wanted to hire help, I don’t know when you would put up and ad or interview possible candidates with this schedule.

[Anonymous]

Does your 6yo play any sports?

You need longer hours from the nanny. 8-6
You should also get a housekeeper who comes 2-3x per week to cook, clean and do laundry.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

“never mind the country club fees”

I mean, you can roll your eyes all you want. I didn't say any of those expenses were necessary, I was just saying it's not that hard to imagine where OP's money is going. I get that you may not have a country club membership, and that's fine, but there are LOTS of people who do, and guess what? They cost money.

so you think we should empathize with OP because she has to work 60 hrs/week to pay for country club fees and is feeling stressed?

I never said you had to empathize with OP. Seriously, can you people read? All I was commenting on was where OP's money went. People were acting like salaries of $750K meant $650K of extra money and I was trying to explain where the money went. I never said anyone needed to empathize with OP. I wouldn't want her life, and in fact I did leave my BigLaw job for one where I make less money but I see my kids and enjoy my life more. But I can't not fathom where the money is going, which was my sole point. I'm sorry you can't understand it.

NP. I understand perfectly well where the money is going, which is why I know how ridiculous it is when OP says things like "we need my salary" and "the money doesn't go as far as you'd think."

I WOTH FT myself and am very familiar with the ongoing work/life balance issues. You won't hear me arguing that OP should quit her job--personally, I'd be wary of relying on her DH as the sole wage earner. It sounds like she is effectively a single parent, and if I were here I'd want to make sure I continued to have the means to support myself if necessary. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have many, many options. At that income, if she can't afford more household help it's because they are spending too much money on other things--whether that be a house/cars that are unnecessarily expensive or things like country club memberships and fancy vacations that aren't necessary at all.

OP DOES need her salary to keep up with the life she and her husband have created. You don't have to like that life, or want that life, but that's the life they have decided they want, ergo they need quite a bit of money to sustain it. I mean, you understand that you can't just buy a $2.5 million house and then tell the bank you wanted to quit your job so they'll just need to take 1/2 the mortgage payments that received before, right?

Also, the money doesn't go as far as you'd think because many (most?) people who comment on these types of threads are envisioning OP sitting on a pile of $750K every year and that's not how it works. About half that will be gone for taxes, and while $375/400K is still a lot of money, I bet OP wouldn't have nearly as many people jumping down her throat if she said that's what their combined salaries were.

Finally, people seem to have a hard time understanding how expensive some of the things OP is paying for really are. Private school at $55K per kid is $110K of after-tax money. That's about $220K of salary right there. I am not passing any judgment on OP's way of life, I am merely saying I can see how she sees the money flying out the window and feels somewhat trapped by the choices they have made. My husband and I were faced with a similar situation and we came to a different conclusion than OP and her husband did but that was our choice. OP is allowed to make hers. And I don't think she's asking for sympathy from anyone - she was asking people how they made it work and some people answered. Other people just couldn't keep their judgmental mouths shut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP DOES need her salary to keep up with the life she and her husband have created. You don't have to like that life, or want that life, but that's the life they have decided they want, ergo they need quite a bit of money to sustain it. I mean, you understand that you can't just buy a $2.5 million house and then tell the bank you wanted to quit your job so they'll just need to take 1/2 the mortgage payments that received before, right?

Also, the money doesn't go as far as you'd think because many (most?) people who comment on these types of threads are envisioning OP sitting on a pile of $750K every year and that's not how it works. About half that will be gone for taxes, and while $375/400K is still a lot of money, I bet OP wouldn't have nearly as many people jumping down her throat if she said that's what their combined salaries were.

Finally, people seem to have a hard time understanding how expensive some of the things OP is paying for really are. Private school at $55K per kid is $110K of after-tax money. That's about $220K of salary right there. I am not passing any judgment on OP's way of life, I am merely saying I can see how she sees the money flying out the window and feels somewhat trapped by the choices they have made. My husband and I were faced with a similar situation and we came to a different conclusion than OP and her husband did but that was our choice. OP is allowed to make hers. And I don't think she's asking for sympathy from anyone - she was asking people how they made it work and some people answered. Other people just couldn't keep their judgmental mouths shut.

Sorry, I see this all the time and have to correct it. It is NOT true that "about half" of a 750k income goes to taxes. At that income, your effective federal tax rate is at worst 30-31%. FICA adds a couple percent. Then state taxes, and effective rate would be between 5-8% depending on whether you live in DC/MD/VA. So it's more like 40%. That's a lot, but it's not "about half." At that income rate, it's $75k better than "half"!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SMH at these rich people complaining about no money after spending all the money on every last thing they might possibly want.

There was a law professor who had some inane screed during the Obama administration using his own family to attack a proposed tax increase. It was something along the lines of, "once my physician wife and I pay the mortgage on our home, pay the nanny, pay the groundskeeper, pay our kids' private schools, max out our 401Ks and 529s, put money in a rainy day fund, and go on vacation and out to eat, we barely have anything left!" Every single "breakdown" trying to explain how hard it is to be rich comes across the same way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SMH at these rich people complaining about no money after spending all the money on every last thing they might possibly want.

There was a law professor who had some inane screed during the Obama administration using his own family to attack a proposed tax increase. It was something along the lines of, "once my physician wife and I pay the mortgage on our home, pay the nanny, pay the groundskeeper, pay our kids' private schools, max out our 401Ks and 529s, put money in a rainy day fund, and go on vacation and out to eat, we barely have anything left!" Every single "breakdown" trying to explain how hard it is to be rich comes across the same way.

Spot on comparison

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SMH at these rich people complaining about no money after spending all the money on every last thing they might possibly want.

There was a law professor who had some inane screed during the Obama administration using his own family to attack a proposed tax increase. It was something along the lines of, "once my physician wife and I pay the mortgage on our home, pay the nanny, pay the groundskeeper, pay our kids' private schools, max out our 401Ks and 529s, put money in a rainy day fund, and go on vacation and out to eat, we barely have anything left!" Every single "breakdown" trying to explain how hard it is to be rich comes across the same way.

I remember that. I actually read it as, "with our income, my wife and I provide full time income for three people and have renovated and preserved a historical home. Is the government really going to do something much better with the money?"

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

“never mind the country club fees”

I mean, you can roll your eyes all you want. I didn't say any of those expenses were necessary, I was just saying it's not that hard to imagine where OP's money is going. I get that you may not have a country club membership, and that's fine, but there are LOTS of people who do, and guess what? They cost money.

so you think we should empathize with OP because she has to work 60 hrs/week to pay for country club fees and is feeling stressed?

I never said you had to empathize with OP. Seriously, can you people read? All I was commenting on was where OP's money went. People were acting like salaries of $750K meant $650K of extra money and I was trying to explain where the money went. I never said anyone needed to empathize with OP. I wouldn't want her life, and in fact I did leave my BigLaw job for one where I make less money but I see my kids and enjoy my life more. But I can't not fathom where the money is going, which was my sole point. I'm sorry you can't understand it.

NP. I understand perfectly well where the money is going, which is why I know how ridiculous it is when OP says things like "we need my salary" and "the money doesn't go as far as you'd think."

I WOTH FT myself and am very familiar with the ongoing work/life balance issues. You won't hear me arguing that OP should quit her job--personally, I'd be wary of relying on her DH as the sole wage earner. It sounds like she is effectively a single parent, and if I were here I'd want to make sure I continued to have the means to support myself if necessary. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have many, many options. At that income, if she can't afford more household help it's because they are spending too much money on other things--whether that be a house/cars that are unnecessarily expensive or things like country club memberships and fancy vacations that aren't necessary at all.

OP DOES need her salary to keep up with the life she and her husband have created. You don't have to like that life, or want that life, but that's the life they have decided they want, ergo they need quite a bit of money to sustain it. I mean, you understand that you can't just buy a $2.5 million house and then tell the bank you wanted to quit your job so they'll just need to take 1/2 the mortgage payments that received before, right?

Also, the money doesn't go as far as you'd think because many (most?) people who comment on these types of threads are envisioning OP sitting on a pile of $750K every year and that's not how it works. About half that will be gone for taxes, and while $375/400K is still a lot of money, I bet OP wouldn't have nearly as many people jumping down her throat if she said that's what their combined salaries were.

Finally, people seem to have a hard time understanding how expensive some of the things OP is paying for really are. Private school at $55K per kid is $110K of after-tax money. That's about $220K of salary right there. I am not passing any judgment on OP's way of life, I am merely saying I can see how she sees the money flying out the window and feels somewhat trapped by the choices they have made. My husband and I were faced with a similar situation and we came to a different conclusion than OP and her husband did but that was our choice. OP is allowed to make hers. And I don't think she's asking for sympathy from anyone - she was asking people how they made it work and some people answered. Other people just couldn't keep their judgmental mouths shut.

They can downsize to a cheaper house, that obviously is what people are thinking of, not paying half the mortgage. This whole analysis is quite silly. Op’s salary actually adds very little to the bottom line when you consider how much of it goes to child care and other outsourcing.

Nearly everyone realizes at some point that time is much more valuable than money, you don’t want to be the person who realizes it too late to do anything about it.

[Anonymous]

Why did you bother to have children if you had no time for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why did you bother to have children if you had no time for them?

What is your problem? Can't you read? Op spends no less time with her kids than anyone who works. She doesn't have time for anything else. Idiot.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

if her DH thinks this, he shouldn't have had children.

maybe. but this is how dudes who make that kind of money think. they normally just assume their wife will handle everything domestic, and it’s up to the wife to get staff if she does not want that role. Head out to Scarsdale sometime and you’ll see. I personally could not stand it, but the moms seem to think it’s the price of admission.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

“never mind the country club fees”

I mean, you can roll your eyes all you want. I didn't say any of those expenses were necessary, I was just saying it's not that hard to imagine where OP's money is going. I get that you may not have a country club membership, and that's fine, but there are LOTS of people who do, and guess what? They cost money.

so you think we should empathize with OP because she has to work 60 hrs/week to pay for country club fees and is feeling stressed?

I never said you had to empathize with OP. Seriously, can you people read? All I was commenting on was where OP's money went. People were acting like salaries of $750K meant $650K of extra money and I was trying to explain where the money went. I never said anyone needed to empathize with OP. I wouldn't want her life, and in fact I did leave my BigLaw job for one where I make less money but I see my kids and enjoy my life more. But I can't not fathom where the money is going, which was my sole point. I'm sorry you can't understand it.

omg. are you really that dumb? the luxury car, the tuition, the giant mortgage, the COUNTRY CLUB, are the extra money. OP has extra money. She’s swimming in extra money. She chooses to waste it all, but she’s got it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Wife of the big law partner here: my husband does dinner and bedtime with the kids every night. I clean while he does bath and stories. From 5:30-7 he is 100% with the kids. It's definitely possible. Her husband needs to pitch in more.

that’s great but not the case for all partners (and what about all the years trying to make partner?) Especially if there are clients in different time zones. And sorry, it still sounds miserable that the only family time is 1.5 hrs every night while you clean then he gets back on the phone. Miserable life, prioritizing money over all else.

Actually that is the case for all partners because the point of becoming partner is having more control over your schedule.
And if a parent works 9-5, has a 30 minute commute and kids go to bed at 7 how is that parent spending more time with their kids that this parent? The difference is working after bedtime. Very few people have the mental fortitude to do that (sounds like you included) which is why so few people make partner.

It’s very rare. Partners serve the clients, and the type of people who grind their way to partner are generally the types to put work above all else.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

oh right. it’s universally acknowledged that BigLaw male parters really put home above professional success and value work-life balance. And that BigLaw gives you so much flexibility and free time in the evenings.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel bad for your kids, but enjoy your fancy house and cars.

Why? Do you work? Did you actually read her posts? She doesn't spend any less time with her kids than someone who works 9-5. Or are you against women working at all? OP's problem is that she has no time for herself, not her kids.

No that is not op’s problem. Her problem is that neither she nor her dh are willing to take a lower paying job that would allow them to work fewer hours, although they objectively can afford to.

But that's not the point pp or you made...why do you feel bad for OP's kids?

because they put money and professional success above family, hobbies, household, and every other possible use of time.