An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. I disagree. Being able to provide for yourself, open a bank account in your name, being able to rent an apartment without needing a father or a husband to co-sign it for you. THAT is a privilege. Being able to go to a safe, clean office where you are respected and treated as an equal and allowed to voice your opinion and develop as a professional. That is a privilege.

In America, a woman does not HAVE to work. If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. That she can do so if she WANTS to, that is a privilege.

Women historically were literally not allowed to work outside of the home. Now that we can, it is a privilege. To think otherwise is to be ungrateful.

Ohmychristalive, you are a raging idiot. In America, a woman does not HAVE to work? Really? You want to tell this to a working-class single mom who is juggling two or three jobs to put food on the table? To professional women who have to work to maintain the lifestyle dependent on two incomes? To widows and suddenly-divorced SAHMs? Where do you think the money is coming from? You think people give you food and clothes and shelter, and educate your children just because you're a woman? Like, show someone your tits and money rains down from the sky?

Idiot. Moron. Imbecile. You are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which is it OP? Are women so oppressed or are you all doing model UN and in Med school flexing your intellectual muscles?

Why not admit you are just trolling for no reason? The immigrant slant was a nice twist but really it's just another boring SAHM slam.

OP here. It is both. There are actually more of the oppressed bored housewives than ambitious overachievers. In many households there's a bit of both; mother did not have a choice but encourages daughter to achieve more etc. The narratives are not mutually exclusive.

Nor are ours, you ninny. That's the whole point. You have no idea what SAHMs did prior to having children, just as you have no idea what they plan on doing when their kids are older. And none of that is any of your business, or that of any other bitter here on DCUM. Chances are good that most of the SAHMs responding to your silly trolling were far more accomplished than you before deciding to take time off to care for their own children. Imagine that!

[Anonymous]

Also, if your friends in the upper classes are at an economic disadvantage, tell them to blame their fathers who should have negotiated a better marital deal for them. My Saudi husband's sisters all received dowries of 50K+ and their own houses because their father insisted on it. I question your upper class status in Pakistan if the women you describe don't have economic assets of their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are confused because you don't understand, or refuse to understand that women didn't start working outside the home INSTEAD of cleaning their babies' poop, they began working outside the home IN ADDITION to cleaning their babies' poop. Some women view it as a burden because their domestic obligations DID NOT DIMINISH when they went to work, and because they are now expected to earn an income AS WELL AS cook and clean poop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No wonder young American men don't want to marry. All it is is an induction into indentured servitude so wifey has a "choice" in whether to work or not. I have never met a SAHM who wasn't outraged at the suggestion she get a job when her husband got laid off.

That's ludicrous. How many SAHM's with laid-off husbands are you talking to? My DH faced a health scare a few years ago that would have forced him to leave his job. I was glad that I'm educated and have work experience and knew I could find something to keep us going if it came to that. We're a team, someone needs to work, someone needs to look after the kids. We do what we have to do.

I know two SAHMs that "accidentally" got pregnant when their youngest children were 8 and 10-years old because the husbands demanded they get a job. Neither had a job their entire lives, but some nonsense got a year or so before they started popping out kids. They have effectively never worked. It's really strange to me.

I sometimes wonder if they will encourage their daughters to do the same.

Oh, good - we're sharing stories again! Let me tell you about a WOHM I know. She got pregnant when she was a teenager. Twice. By different guys. She wound up marrying a third guy and has had to work her entire life because of the poor choices she made when she was younger. She works a menial job as an admin assistant and probably always will. She has never been able to stay home with her kids, and it's one of the biggest regrets of her life. It's really strange to me that her life is so different from mine.

I sometimes wonder if she'll encourage her daughters to do as she did.

So you see, for every dopey "I know a SAHM" story, we can all counter with "I know a WOHM." Have a great day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

And while you're there, check out all the posts from miserable WOHMs desperately seeking advice on how to maximize that one or two hours per day they have with their children. Or asking how they could manage to cut back their hours so their lives are a tiny bit less chaotic and stressful. Yep, being a WOHM is pure utopian bliss! :lol:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Um, being rich is the privilege. You can't choose to not work unless you already have money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

And while you're there, check out all the posts from miserable WOHMs desperately seeking advice on how to maximize that one or two hours per day they have with their children. Or asking how they could manage to cut back their hours so their lives are a tiny bit less chaotic and stressful. Yep, being a WOHM is pure utopian bliss! :lol:

No one is saying it's a bliss. This still doesn't mean that "SAHMs can always begin a career."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

It isn't really about whether you have money or not. Many Pakistani-Americans I know, who come from wealthy families back home, are eager to work. They don't need the money. For them, it is a matter of pride. They go to excellent schools and are ambitious. They're the women with the highest GPAs, do Model UN, are leads in the school play, go to Ivy Leagues, write OP Eds for and think pieces in publications of their choice etc. They also tend to marry well, because their parents arrange their matches, but the women still go on to dental school or medical school and become extremely successful. To them, it is low class to not have any ambition or want to better yourself intellectually or professionally. We work, not necessarily for the money but also because as a thinking living human being,it is necessarily to flex our intellectual muscles.

Hey OP your duplicity is showing. First you start off with Pakistani women can't work outside the home and only get degrees in "fluff" subjects and can't choose better careers. Now all of the sudden you flip and they are well educated, become doctors and dentists, write Op Eds, etc.

Which is it OP?


Here's the truth since you can't keep your stories straight:

It's the wealthy and politically connected families in Pakistan that have the privilege of CHOICE. The women of these families have the privilege of going to school, of working in careers of their choosing, of continuing to work after marriage.

They have that CHOICE because of their socioeconomic status and their class in the Pakistani society. They are not forced to get degrees and work,but they are encouraged and applauded because it distinguishes them from the masses of Pakistan. It solidifies their hierarchy in a society where the average woman does NOT have a CHOICE.

I will state it again for you. Working is not the privilege. CHOICE is the privilege.

Your elite attitude is very much reflected in your postings which I'm sure stems from class in Pakistan and attitude of looking down on others to make yourself superior.
Some lines you've thrown out under the pretense of your intellectual musings:

" I don't envy SAHM wives at all! I love being able to contribute to society.."
''If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. ''
''it is low class to not have any ambition''
''it is a matter of pride.''

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.
I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent? All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies. In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are confused because you don't understand, or refuse to understand that women didn't start working outside the home INSTEAD of cleaning their babies' poop, they began working outside the home IN ADDITION to cleaning their babies' poop. Some women view it as a burden because their domestic obligations DID NOT DIMINISH when they went to work, and because they are now expected to earn an income AS WELL AS cook and clean poop.

OP is confused because she assumes everyone can hire someone to clean their child's poop. That's what the lower class are for.

I saw OP comment that her children are school aged, but she never mentioned who took care of them as babies. Most likely a maid/servant she brought over from Pakistan (or perhaps an Southeast Asian nanny she hired here?).

[Anonymous]

Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.
I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent? All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies. In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are confused because you don't understand, or refuse to understand that women didn't start working outside the home INSTEAD of cleaning their babies' poop, they began working outside the home IN ADDITION to cleaning their babies' poop. Some women view it as a burden because their domestic obligations DID NOT DIMINISH when they went to work, and because they are now expected to earn an income AS WELL AS cook and clean poop.

OP is confused because she assumes everyone can hire someone to clean their child's poop. That's what the lower class are for.

I saw OP comment that her children are school aged, but she never mentioned who took care of them as babies. Most likely a maid/servant she brought over from Pakistan (or perhaps an Southeast Asian nanny she hired here?).

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

And that's the way nature works. It's called cycles. Amazing that you didn't learn this yet as you stretch your intellectual muscles. lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

And while you're there, check out all the posts from miserable WOHMs desperately seeking advice on how to maximize that one or two hours per day they have with their children. Or asking how they could manage to cut back their hours so their lives are a tiny bit less chaotic and stressful. Yep, being a WOHM is pure utopian bliss! :lol:

Working outside the home is not "utopian bliss" -- of course not! It is called being a responsible adult, able to contribute to society and her household budget. Do men sit around musing all day that working outside the home is not the utopian bliss they signed up for? Go back to the 1950s and pill popping housewives wearing aprons.