Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that men are still held to traditional standards (be a high-earning provider), but women aren’t. Competition has increased exponentially for men in the dating and labor markets. Fewer women are having kids, so that means fewer are taking time off from work, therefore more competition for women.

By people who cling to traditional gender roles.

By everyone. Women want partners who make more than them, are fit and are handy. Those are traditional standards.

Not by everyone. I want an equal partner in finances as well as household/childcare responsibilities. This is common in my circles.

“Equal” partners in everything is a myth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simple question: When it comes to these marriage/relationship/gender discussions and debates, what is one trope that rings more true about your own gender than you would like to readily admit?

I'm often engaged in these discussions trying to provide a male perspective on a lot of the issues that are raised. I'm often called misogynist or MRA for some of the opinions I raise here, and that is to be expected on the internet and with such charged topics. I think one problem with these discussions is that people cannot separate their immediate circle, circumstances and experiences from broader set of actors and forces in the dating/marriage landscape. My circle of friends is largely responsible, respectful, self-sufficient, intelligent men, so it can be hard for me to fathom and really digest a lot of the complaints about men that I hear, because it is not reflective of my immediate surroundings. I have to do extra work to overcome my cognitive biases and ingest those possibilities (realities) and realize that there is an entire other universe of men out there that are not like my friend group or circle. This factors into how women conduct themselves, vet mates, follow certain "rules", etc.

I was reminded of this last month when told story about a friend's husband who unilaterally scheduled an invasive procedure without consulting her that would immobilize him for a while, under the assumption that his younger wife just handle everything, including the finances, her own, time-consuming, full-time job, the kids and pets and her own ailing parent. Like...who does that?

Another problem is that people dig in their heels and just reject anything that goes against their team/gender, which completely belies the complexity and gray areas of some of these topics. So maybe for one thread we can not do that?

So the reluctant truth: A lot more men than I would like to admit do just want a wife to "mother" them and completely handle everything in their lives and they are kind of bummy.

Anyone have any?

How do you think men got that way?

Their mommies babied them far beyond infancy. Many mommies will never give up on this insanity, even when it threatens the stability of their boy’s marriage.

Wives keep complaining, yet I see them repeating the same thing with their own sons. Funny how that works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

Sorry--I was being sarcastic which never translates well online. I am not shitting on the choice to work outside the home. In the context of this particular thread, however, there is a lot of disdain towards domestic work and the general idea of relying on others for your well-being. As humans, we litterally cannot be emotionally healthy without relying on the support of others and having others rely on our support and not have some degree of mental health fall-out.

For anyone who is interested in the way that attachment dysfunction affect our relationships with our families, husbands, kids, friends, etc, I highly recommend listening to this podcast:

https://www.podbean.com/pu/pbblog-8zaam-d06ccd

Since this site leans to the political left, before someone beats me to it I will say that the woman who does this podcast is socially and politically conservative . In most episodes that worldview is really relevant to the discussion but in this particular episide it's not. She interviews a psycholigst who specializes in attachemnt theory for adults (usually we associate it just with kids) and how it affects our relationships. I found it both personally and intellectually fascinating and would recommend it to anyone interested in better understanding how/why people treat us certain ways and why we consciously/subconsciously treat other people as we do. At the very end, he offers some new-to-me advice for how women can re-establish stronger partner bonds with their husbands.

No, it’s a dislike for unbalanced domestic work and support. When responsibilities are determined by your sex organs.

How “women” can establish stronger bonds with “men”? Sounds like some sexist bullcrap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

1st wave Feminism sought to address some material problems that women faced as a result of the industrial revolution as worked shifted out of the home and into factories. 2nd wave feminism primarily sought to address the psycholgical fall-out of motherhood in the context of the 1940-60s social model. But why was their so much depression among housewives? Was it b/c domestic life iteself is inherently meaningless? If so, then moving into the working place and living our lives along more traditionally masculine roles would have improved the quality of our emotional lives. But if the underlying problem wasn't domestic life itself but the atomization of the individual and the family (i.e. loss of communcal life and reliance on a tight network of kin and friends) then moving into the workplace wasn't (and I would argue hasn't) solved the real problem. The way our society is set up (every man/woman for him and herself) fosters dysfunctional attachement between men and women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simple question: When it comes to these marriage/relationship/gender discussions and debates, what is one trope that rings more true about your own gender than you would like to readily admit?

I'm often engaged in these discussions trying to provide a male perspective on a lot of the issues that are raised. I'm often called misogynist or MRA for some of the opinions I raise here, and that is to be expected on the internet and with such charged topics. I think one problem with these discussions is that people cannot separate their immediate circle, circumstances and experiences from broader set of actors and forces in the dating/marriage landscape. My circle of friends is largely responsible, respectful, self-sufficient, intelligent men, so it can be hard for me to fathom and really digest a lot of the complaints about men that I hear, because it is not reflective of my immediate surroundings. I have to do extra work to overcome my cognitive biases and ingest those possibilities (realities) and realize that there is an entire other universe of men out there that are not like my friend group or circle. This factors into how women conduct themselves, vet mates, follow certain "rules", etc.

I was reminded of this last month when told story about a friend's husband who unilaterally scheduled an invasive procedure without consulting her that would immobilize him for a while, under the assumption that his younger wife just handle everything, including the finances, her own, time-consuming, full-time job, the kids and pets and her own ailing parent. Like...who does that?

Another problem is that people dig in their heels and just reject anything that goes against their team/gender, which completely belies the complexity and gray areas of some of these topics. So maybe for one thread we can not do that?

So the reluctant truth: A lot more men than I would like to admit do just want a wife to "mother" them and completely handle everything in their lives and they are kind of bummy.

Anyone have any?

How do you think men got that way?

Their mommies babied them far beyond infancy. Many mommies will never give up on this insanity, even when it threatens the stability of their boy’s marriage.

Wives keep complaining, yet I see them repeating the same thing with their own sons. Funny how that works.

LOL, I like how even once a man reaches adulthood, it's still a woman's fault that he's violent or incompetent or whatever. Never mind that this man most likely learned how to be a man from his father.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

Sorry--I was being sarcastic which never translates well online. I am not shitting on the choice to work outside the home. In the context of this particular thread, however, there is a lot of disdain towards domestic work and the general idea of relying on others for your well-being. As humans, we litterally cannot be emotionally healthy without relying on the support of others and having others rely on our support and not have some degree of mental health fall-out.

For anyone who is interested in the way that attachment dysfunction affect our relationships with our families, husbands, kids, friends, etc, I highly recommend listening to this podcast:

https://www.podbean.com/pu/pbblog-8zaam-d06ccd

Since this site leans to the political left, before someone beats me to it I will say that the woman who does this podcast is socially and politically conservative . In most episodes that worldview is really relevant to the discussion but in this particular episide it's not. She interviews a psycholigst who specializes in attachemnt theory for adults (usually we associate it just with kids) and how it affects our relationships. I found it both personally and intellectually fascinating and would recommend it to anyone interested in better understanding how/why people treat us certain ways and why we consciously/subconsciously treat other people as we do. At the very end, he offers some new-to-me advice for how women can re-establish stronger partner bonds with their husbands.

No, it’s a dislike for unbalanced domestic work and support. When responsibilities are determined by your sex organs.

How “women” can establish stronger bonds with “men”? Sounds like some sexist bullcrap.

Um, this is a relationship forum. Women are on here everyday asking for advice on how to improve their marriages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

You are doing your children a disservice. You should be teaching your children to trust their gut. I teach my children that if someone is acting strangely to stay clear. I also teach them that if there is a man who is hanging around looking like he has nothing to do or is going nowhere, to observe and steer clear there too. This advice has served us all well at the playground near our home. She knows the difference between a dad waiting for his kid outside of school and a lurker at the playground. I also teach my kids to seek help from a mother if they get lost. It's crazy to go out of your way to pretend men aren't a bigger danger than women.

It's exactly the "digging in" behavior alluded to in the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

I guess I just don't understand the desire to constantly sh*t on other women's choices, especially if these women are content, as you suggest. Why make someone else's relationship dynamics a part of your battleground? Constantly. It doesn't add up.

The whole battleground thing doesn't sound very fun or pleasant, but I guess that's life. Adjust accordingly. The bolded is a pretty interesting theory and I can definitely see a case for it, but it's also kind of sad b/c it sounds like of alienating. For everyone.

Re contentment: How does that square with the rise of anti-depressant use (women moreso than men) and the absolute and relative declines in self-reported happiness from women. Is it the case that the DCUM demo is more professionally successful and upwardly mobile, so they are not succumbing to these trends as much? There is a certain classed tenor to a statement like "men are irrelevant" that I don't think travels quite as well outside of fora like these.

You raise some interesting thoughts. I'll look into the attachment theories more.

If you’re happy in “traditional roles”, you’re happy.

But don’t pretend like you aren’t perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Would you say the same to women that expect me to pay on first dates, act chivalrous (benevolent sexism grounded in assumption about women), sign up for the draft, perform the more dangerous jobs, "fix stuff" around the house, not cry too much, etc? Many women hold these expectations and it is part of the same dynamic that reinforces female gender stereotypes.

One way deconstruction of gender stereotypes breeds a lot of resentment.

Those women would also be perpetuating stereotypes. Absolutely.

I think the point of disagreement, then, will be re: the usefulness and desirability of stereotypes. We all use them. Some are more acceptable than others.

Part of the trouble might come when pattern recognition (especially decontextualized) evolves into essentialism.

Having preconceived notions of people based solely on their sex organs isn’t helpful.

How do you feel about the statement "men generally pose more of a physical danger than women"?

We can look at crime statistics and see trends. But drawing conclusions about any individual based on that data is harmful.

It's not about drawing conclusions about individuals. It's about enacting safeguards and tailoring your behavior according to recognized trends (or stereotypes).

I think it is helpful when a mother tells a daughter to be a little bit more hesitant and watchful around strange men. Do you not?

I teach all of my kids to be aware of their surroundings and to avoid putting themselves into risky situations (drunk). But I never say to be wary of strange men. That’s not something I ever heard growing up either. Very odd, fearful advice.

Surely you know that first drink reduces your child’s ability to protect themselves. Everyone is different.

Most people can tolerate some amount of alcohol before getting sloppy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

[Anonymous]

Way too many women (mostly women) depend on pleasing sexist men to keep power over POC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are entering a civilization crisis.

No we're not. Life is, in general, better now than it has been in any other time or place.

The birthrate is plummeting.

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And it's not like someone can't be a stay at home mom and also ride a motorcycle and compete in triathlons. You job is not your only means of gender roles. Lots of immature people on here. There are entire countries where everyone is not only in their gender role for their job but their entire lifestyle.

I think it bespeaks a certain level of insecurity by certain women (or perhaps regret) when they try to denigrate the choices that other women have made just because they just so happen to conform with "traditional" gender norms. Like they are duty bound to interject themselves into other people's affairs and arrangements, lest their own preferences and choices be somehow deemed inferior.

Cynical take: the more I see this kind of stuff the more I'm certain that 2nd -3rd wave Feminism didn't solve any real problems for women but rather shifted the primary manifestations of our anxieties from anxious-attachment to avoidant-attachment. We work outside the home and earn our own income so now we don't need anyone for anything. Men are irrelevant. And we are SO CONTENT. Every relationship--even our own families--is just a battleground for power so you must position yourself accordingly.

This is a good observation. The basic goals of feminism are (in my opinion) beyond questioning: women should not be subservient to men and should be regarded as fully equal human beings. But beyond pursuit of those things, is feminism creating a world where women are happier? I don't see much happiness springing from how much better things are than they used to be; and I see a lot of unhappiness springing from how miserable people are over gender relations now. Are we accomplishing anything? Is the path we're on currently likely to make anyone happy?

Are you kidding? Women can now have their own credit cards. Husbands are not legally allowed to rape their wives. We can use birth control (for now, anyway). I could go on, but I hope you’ve gotten the idea.

These were all accomplishments secured 50 years ago. In the last, say, 25 years, has feminism been making the lives of women happier or less happy? Most discussions of feminism an gender I see are online, so hardly a representative sample, but women seem miserable.

Women are more likely to express their feelings.