What is the End Game in Ukraine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I should preface this by saying that I'm not a pro-Russian troll. The invasion of Ukraine is both unprovoked and has led to an unending stream of Russian atrocities. I would love to see Russia pushed out of both Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

But I'm getting confused about Ukraine's prognosis and our own objectives. Ukraine has failed to reclaim any significant territory since Kharkiv in the Spring. They lack the manpower to conduct the urban warfare required to push Russia from its defensive positions. From everything I've read the HIMARS long-range missiles donated by the US, while allowing spectacular strikes behind Russian lines, are not likely to substantially affect Russia's long-term defensive capabilities. So we have a long-term (maybe permanent) stalemate. Except it's only a stalemate because of constant infusions of weapons from NATO countries.

So are you supportive of a permanent lien on the US military budget to keep the war as a stalemate? Is that even a moral choice, given the civilian destruction that will result? Should we be pressing instead for some negotiated swap of territory for peace? Or is it better to keep on present course, checkmating Russia by proxy even at a cost to Ukraine's civilian population and military?

The goal should be to flush Russian spies and shills out of U.S. web forums and require them to spend the rest of their careers working as a telephone-based fundraisers for Ukrainian reconstruction efforts.

You're an example of censorship masquerading as virtue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Ah, no. Russia and Ukraine (and America) signed an agreement in 1994 guaranteeing that Russia would respect Ukraine’s borders if Ukraine turned its nuclear weapons over to Russia. That didn’t work out well for Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Putin wants to exercise dominion over all of the former republics. Russian nationalism cements his grip on power. He wasn’t trying to tools a givernment in Montenegro because of Ukraine of Georgia. He can’t abide prosperous, democratic nations on his western border when the Russian standard of living is abysmal. .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Dp- it sucks that your heating costs are going to be high this winter, but that doesn’t mean Ukraine should surrender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Putin wants to exercise dominion over all of the former republics. Russian nationalism cements his grip on power. He wasn’t trying to tools a givernment in Montenegro because of Ukraine of Georgia. He can’t abide prosperous, democratic nations on his western border when the Russian standard of living is abysmal. .

^topple

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Ah, no. Russia and Ukraine (and America) signed an agreement in 1994 guaranteeing that Russia would respect Ukraine’s borders if Ukraine turned its nuclear weapons over to Russia. That didn’t work out well for Ukraine.

Yes the USA should rearm the Ukrainians with nuclear weapons. It is the only login step.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

There is no non-partisan information about what the Ukrainian people demand.

The Ukrainian people are also not a monolith. What Western Ukraine wants is very different from what Eastern Ukraine wants.

Neither group wants to be slaughtered by Russia or transported to the gulags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Putin wants to exercise dominion over all of the former republics. Russian nationalism cements his grip on power. He wasn’t trying to tools a givernment in Montenegro because of Ukraine of Georgia. He can’t abide prosperous, democratic nations on his western border when the Russian standard of living is abysmal. .

Of all the unimportant European countries, Montenegro is probably close to top five. It’s also not on the Russian border.

Ukraine is neither prosperous nor democratic, and it was ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe BEFORE the war. That was when it was still possible to say things like this about Ukraine. Now CBS is forced to pull down their documentaries because someone on tape says barely 30% of military aid reaches its destination. Can’t say things like this now, can we, careful, Kremlin may hear you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

I am not excusing Russia as I said.
I am answering the question: what is the end game? And the end game (for the west) is what I have described.
The endgame for Russia, if it even exists, is unrealistic. As well as for Ukraine. Their demands are just and fair but completely unrealistic. Both countries will essentially perish, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Still not an acceptable excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country.

The West tried doing nothing when Russia took Crimea. The West was prepared to do nothing again after Russia attacked in February. It was only after Ukraine proved to the world they wanted to stand against Russia that the West decided to give them a bunch of weapons.

LOL No. Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a framework back in April in Istanbul that would have stopped the war.

Then Mr. Johnson flew to Kiev and told Zelensky not to negotiate.

As recently as a few weeks ago the Ukrainian foreign minister was running his mouth that they don't want the Turkish efforts to mediate to succeed as "our partners don't want Turkey to get too important and we are dependent on our partners, so we won't cooperate with Turkey's peacemaking". I mean honestly man, just talk less.

But sure. It's all about Ukraine wanting to stand against Russia entirely unassisted and un-encouraged from beyond its borders.

Russians weren’t ready to talk in Istanbul either. They knew they could bite off even more. They continued to cling to their unrealistic demands. Ukrainian’s demands are also not realistic. I see it as a stalemate and honestly I don’t know what could be the tipping point. I expect a slow bloody grind and then, like in WWI, one side is going to become too weak to fight and will have other problems to solve. There might be another 1917 revolution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

I am thinking the same
Zelensky is ok with sacrificing his people

This is such an ignorant post. The Ukrainian people don't want to quit. If anything, Zelensky's options are constrained by the demand of the Ukrainian people to continue the fight. The Russians have been committing atrocities in all the territory they've occupied. Who in their right mind would surrender to that??

I wouldn’t be so sure. It may well be the case, but people are tired. Yeah they don’t really want to become Little Russia but it’s better than being under occupation and then liberated and then occupied again. I think many many people are very tired of fighting and living in war conditions. (DP)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to sound pro Russian, I am not, but without all the flirting the West was engaging in with Ukraine and Georgia, and to some extent Moldova, all this wouldn’t have happened. Even if they stopped the flirting on time it would have been fine.
But maybe the west was ok with Slavs fighting. And EU was too dumb to see the consequences to their own economy?
So now, the endgame is to weaken Russia as much as possible. To the last Ukrainian I am afraid

Putin wants to exercise dominion over all of the former republics. Russian nationalism cements his grip on power. He wasn’t trying to tools a givernment in Montenegro because of Ukraine of Georgia. He can’t abide prosperous, democratic nations on his western border when the Russian standard of living is abysmal. .

Who cares what he wants. He can’t go to war with all 15 former republics even if he wants to anyway