Letting the Ivy plan go

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are two issues raised by the OP -- one is the desire for her kid to go to an Ivy and the other is for her kid to take rigorous classes. The first one is a lottery for most unless they have a significant hook. But the other is a real concern. Check the thread on the College Discussion here. UFL, which is a good but not great flagship needs an average of 4.5 weighted average and 1400+ SAT for an out of state kid. Without rigorous classes (multiple APs/DEs) even top 50 state schools can be hard to get in now and will likely be harder in a few years. OP knows this and should perhaps try and gently nudge her kid to continue in the rigorous classes.

It’s only a “real concern” if you think your kid can only get a quality education at a T50. I mean I know no one will change your mind, but anything in the T150 will give your kid an excellent education.

[Anonymous]

Help her find her strengths and enjoy learning. Have you seen what is going on at the Ivies? The degree may end up worthless and do you want your kid indoctrinated to see the world one way without critical thinking skills?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Help her find her strengths and enjoy learning. Have you seen what is going on at the Ivies? The degree may end up worthless and do you want your kid indoctrinated to see the world one way without critical thinking skills?

Sorry…the degree won’t end up worthless. The same “indoctrination” is happening at Michigan, UC…even University of Alabama according to an editorial in the NY Post from an Alabama dropout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have a similar academic background as you, OP. Both DH and I attended top 10 schools for both undergrad and grad school. But we are quickly realizing that college admissions is different today than it was when we applied. Even if she did have a 4.0 unweighted in honors and AP classes and had 1550+, there is no guarantee she would get into a top 10 school. There are too many applicants and holistic admissions is unpredictable. Sometimes non-academic standouts get admitted over academic standouts for other, sometimes random reasons. Imagine how you would feel if you pushed her and she had a stressful high school grind, and she still didn't get into a top tier school, because this is what is happening to many kids. it's a risky game to play with your kid's mental health.

I have a freshman kid who loves academics and we don't even have to push. She has the profile of a kid who would have done really well in college admissions back in the day. Taking BC calc as a sophomore, doing well academically all around, all-state musician, competition wins, her teachers like her, and she tests really well, etc. We are basically telling her not to aim for the top schools that we attended, and really promoting other schools. I don't want her to feel the pressure of needing to start her own successful non-profit, publish a book, win the international math olympiad, and cure cancer in her spare time, etc. Kids shouldn't have to craft such developed personas at such a young age. They are just kids and should just be focused on discovering what they like, socializing, learning good study habits, getting enough sleep etc. It's better to send a mentally healthy kid to a non-prestigious school than an anxious kid to an Ivy, only to have them break down there and not do well.

Also, despite the hype, you do not need perfect stats to get into college. There are plenty of schools out there. Among my many friends and neighbors who have college age kids, I know of zero cases where kids couldn't get into a place. Everyone found a place they were satisfied with (although not first choice), and not all of these kids were the very academic types.

Your kid sounds grounded and an excellent candidate for a top school if she chooses to apply.

I don’t think it is wrong to just have a good selection of high reach, reach, target and safety schools and don’t let your kid fall into the trap of a “dream” school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Help her find her strengths and enjoy learning. Have you seen what is going on at the Ivies? The degree may end up worthless and do you want your kid indoctrinated to see the world one way without critical thinking skills?

Sorry…the degree won’t end up worthless. The same “indoctrination” is happening at Michigan, UC…even University of Alabama according to an editorial in the NY Post from an Alabama dropout.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dh and I also went to an Ivy. Our dcs are excellent students, well-rounded people...And they would never get in now. The college landscape has changed so much and is so competitive. I have zero doubts they'd excel at an Ivy, but it won't happen.

+1

After doing alumni interviews for years, I realized that it’s not worth killing yourself to build an insane resume just to enter a lottery.

And I’ve also realized that people can be happy/successful anywhere they go for undergrad. I prefer they find a good peer group for lifelong friendships but you can find your people in many schools.

I feel like people fail to realize how much of a lottery it is, especially for kinds coming from the DC area. I did IB w/ a middling GPA but high SATs, made time for a fun high school experience, and ended up at a state school honors program for undergrad. I loved it, stood out academically without having to work too hard, had a great time socially, and am so glad that's how it turned out. So many of my HS classmates wore themselves thin just to end up at UMD with the kids who had fun. You can have a 4.0 and perfect test scores and all the hooks in the world and still get rejected. One of the best lessons I learned from a mentor in undergrad is that goals should be things you have control over; they should be actionable. "Getting into an Ivy" isn't a healthy or realistic goal, because so much of it is luck and at the end of the day you can do everything "right" and still not get in. And of course going to an Ivy is not at all the right fit for everyone (and all of them are SO different), nor is it a guarantee for success.

I'm currently getting my masters at an HYP school and I have friends with the same stats as me who got rejected from my masters program. I think the acceptance rate for this year's application cycle was literally under 1% (it's a very specific program only offered at a few schools, even the non-T20 programs are super competitive), and I absolutely tell people that after a certain stats threshold it's basically a lottery. We've joked that admission depends on whether or not [notoriously hangry program chair] read your file before or after lunch.

I have friends in my program who applied 2-3 times before getting in, and were specifically told to apply again in the next cycle because their rejection was an issue of space, not an issue of talent. There are so few seats, you can be so smart and so hardworking and still not make the cut. Of the 13 people in my specific Ivy graduate program, 6 (!) of us are from the DMV (mix of MCPS/FCPS/private) and only one of us got into an Ivy for undergrad.

I also think it's one of those things where correlation is not a causation. Yes I'm getting the Ivy education and connections, but when you're looking at a crazy competitive program, all the people who got in were always going to do well regardless of where they went-- be it due to intelligence/talent, work ethic, or family money/connections. I think specifically for my program, which has a heavy interview and vetting process on top of a standard application, we got in because we were already on the right trajectory to be at the top of our field, simply going to an Ivy isn't what's going to make us successful, we were already on track to be successful. And I'd imagine the same is true for a lot of people who were in the top 5-10% of applicants but just didn't make that final round of cuts. They'll all be fine professionally. Sometimes it feels like very fancy daycare-- I'm just here to hang out and meet the "right" people, not necessarily learn. I have friends getting the same degree at state schools who seem to have more rigor/learn more content than I do at my Ivy.

I know you are all up on your high horse because you are getting an ivy master’s and think you are very special, but the truth is you are not.

Everybody knows that Ivy masters programs are just cash cows. The true cachet lies with going there for undergrad or professional school. So if you think you are getting access to the same level of connections that a HYP undergrad or law grad is getting, it’s time to wake up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any kid who "wants to go to Mom's alma mater since she was a little kid" is a victim of bad parenting. That is completely unhealthy idea to plant in a little kid's head, as reflects Mom's pathetic obsession with her alma mater's status

I think people are dumping because it is an Ivy League school.

There are plenty of Michigan Alums (including my neighbor) that deck their kids out in full Michigan gear and of course were insufferable when they won the NCAA football championship. I don't accuse them of having pathetic obsessions.

+1,000

If this thread was about any state school grad needing to let go of the dream of their kid going to their alma mater, we’d barely hit 3 pages.

Any topic related to the ivies just riles people up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dh and I also went to an Ivy. Our dcs are excellent students, well-rounded people...And they would never get in now. The college landscape has changed so much and is so competitive. I have zero doubts they'd excel at an Ivy, but it won't happen.

+1

After doing alumni interviews for years, I realized that it’s not worth killing yourself to build an insane resume just to enter a lottery.

And I’ve also realized that people can be happy/successful anywhere they go for undergrad. I prefer they find a good peer group for lifelong friendships but you can find your people in many schools.

I feel like people fail to realize how much of a lottery it is, especially for kinds coming from the DC area. I did IB w/ a middling GPA but high SATs, made time for a fun high school experience, and ended up at a state school honors program for undergrad. I loved it, stood out academically without having to work too hard, had a great time socially, and am so glad that's how it turned out. So many of my HS classmates wore themselves thin just to end up at UMD with the kids who had fun. You can have a 4.0 and perfect test scores and all the hooks in the world and still get rejected. One of the best lessons I learned from a mentor in undergrad is that goals should be things you have control over; they should be actionable. "Getting into an Ivy" isn't a healthy or realistic goal, because so much of it is luck and at the end of the day you can do everything "right" and still not get in. And of course going to an Ivy is not at all the right fit for everyone (and all of them are SO different), nor is it a guarantee for success.

I'm currently getting my masters at an HYP school and I have friends with the same stats as me who got rejected from my masters program. I think the acceptance rate for this year's application cycle was literally under 1% (it's a very specific program only offered at a few schools, even the non-T20 programs are super competitive), and I absolutely tell people that after a certain stats threshold it's basically a lottery. We've joked that admission depends on whether or not [notoriously hangry program chair] read your file before or after lunch.

I have friends in my program who applied 2-3 times before getting in, and were specifically told to apply again in the next cycle because their rejection was an issue of space, not an issue of talent. There are so few seats, you can be so smart and so hardworking and still not make the cut. Of the 13 people in my specific Ivy graduate program, 6 (!) of us are from the DMV (mix of MCPS/FCPS/private) and only one of us got into an Ivy for undergrad.

I also think it's one of those things where correlation is not a causation. Yes I'm getting the Ivy education and connections, but when you're looking at a crazy competitive program, all the people who got in were always going to do well regardless of where they went-- be it due to intelligence/talent, work ethic, or family money/connections. I think specifically for my program, which has a heavy interview and vetting process on top of a standard application, we got in because we were already on the right trajectory to be at the top of our field, simply going to an Ivy isn't what's going to make us successful, we were already on track to be successful. And I'd imagine the same is true for a lot of people who were in the top 5-10% of applicants but just didn't make that final round of cuts. They'll all be fine professionally. Sometimes it feels like very fancy daycare-- I'm just here to hang out and meet the "right" people, not necessarily learn. I have friends getting the same degree at state schools who seem to have more rigor/learn more content than I do at my Ivy.

I know you are all up on your high horse because you are getting an ivy master’s and think you are very special, but the truth is you are not.

Everybody knows that Ivy masters programs are just cash cows. The true cachet lies with going there for undergrad or professional school. So if you think you are getting access to the same level of connections that a HYP undergrad or law grad is getting, it’s time to wake up.

I'm not on any sort of high horse? My entire post is commiserating that it's hard, especially for the DMV, and reassuring that not getting into an Ivy is not the end of the world.

But, FWIW, my master's is fully funded and is not a program/specialty even offered at the undergrad level. Couldn't have gone here for undergrad even if I had the stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wrong place to ask. Everyone will tell you let her take regular classes. Less competition for their kid

Truth.

OP, the only way to get acclimated to the grind of hard classes is to take hard classes.

[Anonymous]

How many times has she heard your scholarship story? You worked hard because it was your personality and you wanted it.

What’s your daughter into? What are her hopes and dreams? What makes her laugh? What does she stand for? How does she want to be perceived? What does she value most about herself?

[Anonymous]

She might stick it out if she feels you believe in who she is for who she is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wrong place to ask. Everyone will tell you let her take regular classes. Less competition for their kid

Truth.

OP, the only way to get acclimated to the grind of hard classes is to take hard classes.

"Less competition for their kid"

That's just stupid. Telling one parent whose child is verbalizing that they're struggling to dial it back is not going to create any measurable space.

I agree that acclimation is helpful, but OPs kid is already exceedingly accelerated so the grind is there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Damn I woke the beasts. I was hoping for helpful sane DCUM.

First of all, we didn’t come from money so this isn’t Muffy buys a library to get little Princess in. We had to work so hard. And now we have a better life so maybe our kids aren’t feeling that push that we had.

And of course don’t take my school literally. Just representative of what our collective goals were for so long: very strong schools.

Secondly, I am SURE you all want your kids to to top schools. You all talk about it all the time here. So, so do we. But I am trying navigate that plan with my daughter in front of me right now and hear her while also acknowledging that we are dealing with an adolescent and all that comes with. And I want to do the right thing.

It’s a reasonable question. And only sane DCUM need respond.

I don’t. I think the mental health costs are far too high. I’m in my late 40s and everyone I know who attended these institutions (T10 PhD, so I know a lot of these folks) as undergraduates suffered damage while there. I think kids now have to suffer damage just to get in. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Dh and I met at Williams. I loved it there and it was the right fit for me but I don’t think I want my children to go there or, at least, really consider if it’s right for them. They’re still young (7 and 12). Both my siblings applied early to colleges they were accepted to and both ended up at academically less rigorous colleges that were better fits for them. My brother went to the college with the lowest ranking and - both socially and professionally - is probably the most successful of the three of us.

[Anonymous]

There are so many people who I know who did average in high school, attended a lower ranked public university, and then hit it out of the park there, by sheer hard work and focus. I think there is an element of not peeking too early. It seems like the focus of getting into an Ivy as a high school student encourages that early peaking. Your daughter may be more ready for high caliber work, and hard work in general, when she's a bit older.
One of my cousins jokes how she worked so hard as a high school student, and got into so many Ivies. She went to undergrad on a scholarship, and eventually to a competitive med school. She took so many AP classes in high school and came in with something like 40 credits. And then by the time she got into residency, she started meeting people in her class - FROM HER HIGH SCHOOL, who in high school had partied a lot, gotten a few bad grades in science classes, had middling SAT scores, and went to average colleges. As she notes, everyone ended up in the same place, and there was no point in her working so hard so early. She's definitely taken a very chill approach to her own kids now, and could care less about where they go to college.
One of my cousins jokes