Help me to understand transgender identity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Because they do not want to be arrested if they use the restroom.

Ah. But they are using the wrong restroom, as is clearly designated by signage. Can they not read? Is this really a literacy issue, perhaps?

I don't know what public restrooms you use, but the public restrooms I use typically have signs that say "men/women", not "people with penises/people with vulvas", not "people whose original birth certificates say M/people whose original birth certificates say F", and certainly not "people with XX chromosomes/people with XY chromosomes". In fact I have never seen any public restroom that used any of the latter three signs.

Right. Let's go with that. Men/ Women on restroom doors. Glad you've seen that and know the general subject matter.

Now, this is where it might get complicated.

You see, men have certain outward biological parts, and women have another set of biological parts. They are in no way the same, nor easily confused. These outward biological parts correspond to the chromosomes that make up the very essence of the person or persons we are discussing.

Are you with me so far? Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Right. Let's go with that. Men/ Women on restroom doors. Glad you've seen that and know the general subject matter.

Now, this is where it might get complicated.

You see, men have certain outward biological parts, and women have another set of biological parts. They are in no way the same, nor easily confused. These outward biological parts correspond to the chromosomes that make up the very essence of the person or persons we are discussing.

Are you with me so far? Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

These statements are actually factually incorrect. Human biology is far more complicated than xx-ovaries and vulva-woman, xy-testes and penis-man. I strongly suggest that you read this scientific-review article in Nature that was just linked: http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Because they do not want to be arrested if they use the restroom.

Ah. But they are using the wrong restroom, as is clearly designated by signage. Can they not read? Is this really a literacy issue, perhaps?

I don't know what public restrooms you use, but the public restrooms I use typically have signs that say "men/women", not "people with penises/people with vulvas", not "people whose original birth certificates say M/people whose original birth certificates say F", and certainly not "people with XX chromosomes/people with XY chromosomes". In fact I have never seen any public restroom that used any of the latter three signs.

Right. Let's go with that. Men/ Women on restroom doors. Glad you've seen that and know the general subject matter.

Now, this is where it might get complicated.

You see, men have certain outward biological parts, and women have another set of biological parts. They are in no way the same, nor easily confused. These outward biological parts correspond to the chromosomes that make up the very essence of the person or persons we are discussing.

Are you with me so far? Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

Aw, that's so cute. Such a simple, simple mind you have. Must be nice, hearing all the "la la la" in your head all day long.

[Anonymous]

Or, if you're ambitious, you could read a whole book: http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo16835663.html

It got some good review:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/review/gendering-chromosomes
http://www.newstatesman.com/future-proof/2015/02/sex-isn-t-chromosomes-story-century-misconceptions-about-x-y

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.
I'm not a pearl clutcher, but even if I was -- WHO CARES. The point is, will transgenders ask for urinals one day in womens bathrooms? To the ridiculous person who assumed I thought all men use urinals only, stop assuming. I am asking if it is a possibility in the future. Why couldn't it be? How many of you who are fine with transgenders using womens bathrooms will also be fine with biological men using urinals in front of you or your children?

Transgender folks - I am truly sorry for the hardship you endure, but your right to pee, possibly even at a urinal, in front of my toddler does not trump my right to protect my daughter from seeing this. If you want to be bold enough to don a skirt and high heels and a red wig, then you should know people will stare or laugh. It's unusual to see a 6' man dressed like this. Learn to ignore. If you are at risk of being raped in the mens bathroom, then the mens bathroom needs a full time attendant; it shouldn't be the women's problem to accommodate you in their bathroom. You are biologically male and the mens bathroom is for people who are biologically male, regardless of how they like
to dress.

I honestly do hope somebody sues NC. This case should go to SCOTUS. Discrimination of LGB will be ruled unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause, but there is no way transgenders demand to use bathrooms representing their gender identity when they are biologically male will ever pass constitutional muster. Granted no one will do underwear checks but it will never be a protected right.

Toddlers see this routinely when they to a public restroom with fathers. If your daughter has a dad (unless you're a single mom or part of a two-woman couple), she's probably already seen this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.
I'm not a pearl clutcher, but even if I was -- WHO CARES. The point is, will transgenders ask for urinals one day in womens bathrooms? To the ridiculous person who assumed I thought all men use urinals only, stop assuming. I am asking if it is a possibility in the future. Why couldn't it be? How many of you who are fine with transgenders using womens bathrooms will also be fine with biological men using urinals in front of you or your children?

Transgender folks - I am truly sorry for the hardship you endure, but your right to pee, possibly even at a urinal, in front of my toddler does not trump my right to protect my daughter from seeing this. If you want to be bold enough to don a skirt and high heels and a red wig, then you should know people will stare or laugh. It's unusual to see a 6' man dressed like this. Learn to ignore. If you are at risk of being raped in the mens bathroom, then the mens bathroom needs a full time attendant; it shouldn't be the women's problem to accommodate you in their bathroom. You are biologically male and the mens bathroom is for people who are biologically male, regardless of how they like
to dress.

I honestly do hope somebody sues NC. This case should go to SCOTUS. Discrimination of LGB will be ruled unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause, but there is no way transgenders demand to use bathrooms representing their gender identity when they are biologically male will ever pass constitutional muster. Granted no one will do underwear checks but it will never be a protected right.

So, OP, you are saying that trans men should use the ladies' room because they were born biological females. And how are you going to feel when you see someone who looks like a man, dresses like a man, maybe has a beard, walk into the woman's restroom, and you can't tell if they are biologically male or female? Since you are so verklemt about this issue, I'd think you would not be very comfortable with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would be perfectly okay with everybody, male and female, all just using unisex bathrooms. I have a tween daughter, but she has a father and brothers, so an accidental glimpse of something isn't going to be a big deal. However, I am struggling with how to explain the idea of transgenderism to her, more so than her brothers, because I am very uncomfortable with the gender stereotypes that are inherent in the idea that someone feels like a man or a woman on the inside. What does that mean? It seems mostly cultural. I don't want her to absorb the idea, one that was pushed on me as a young girl and young woman interested in a field of work that was not traditionally female (or any type of work at all, according to my family), that being a girl on the inside means that you like certain subjects at school, certain colors, certain types of books, or sports, etc.

A transgender person isn't necessarily gay. Just like Caitlyn Jenner who said she would continue to date women then went back on it a year later and said she would think of dating men well if she's attracted to women still then she'll be attracted to the women she's using the bathroom with and if she's pre-op well then that is where things would get weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be perfectly okay with everybody, male and female, all just using unisex bathrooms. I have a tween daughter, but she has a father and brothers, so an accidental glimpse of something isn't going to be a big deal. However, I am struggling with how to explain the idea of transgenderism to her, more so than her brothers, because I am very uncomfortable with the gender stereotypes that are inherent in the idea that someone feels like a man or a woman on the inside. What does that mean? It seems mostly cultural. I don't want her to absorb the idea, one that was pushed on me as a young girl and young woman interested in a field of work that was not traditionally female (or any type of work at all, according to my family), that being a girl on the inside means that you like certain subjects at school, certain colors, certain types of books, or sports, etc.

A transgender person isn't necessarily gay. Just like Caitlyn Jenner who said she would continue to date women then went back on it a year later and said she would think of dating men well if she's attracted to women still then she'll be attracted to the women she's using the bathroom with and if she's pre-op well then that is where things would get weird.

Right. So, you have people like Laverne Cox's character Sophia on OITNB, who was a straight man, and is now a lesbian. And you have people like Carmen Carrera, who was a gay man, and now is a straight woman.

Where you lost me was "things getting weird" when someone is attracted to someone else in the bathroom. Surely, that happens sometimes when people of the same birth gender use the bathroom. Is it awkward for gay men or lesbians? It's certainly something that would merit a conversation in a relationship whether a trans* person is pre- or post-op.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am relatively liberal, and don't really "get" transgender identity either. I believe in science and genetics. Chromosomes are chromosomes and anything else is just wishing. However, I don't have to get it. There is zero harm done to me by someone who has decided to live as the opposite gender, and kindness never hurt anyone. And I'm really not going to do a "look-inside-the-pants" test nor require a genome sequencing to use a bathroom, so this whole thing is completely ridiculous and a total waste of legislator resources. What actual work needed to be done and wasn't because of bozo laws like this? That may actually be doing me harm.

+1

A useful article for the two of you:

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Sex can be much more complicated than it at first seems. According to the simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what counts: with it, you are male, and without it, you are female. But doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary — their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another. Parents of children with these kinds of conditions — known as intersex conditions, or differences or disorders of sex development (DSDs) — often face difficult decisions about whether to bring up their child as a boy or a girl. Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of DSD.

When genetics is taken into consideration, the boundary between the sexes becomes even blurrier. Scientists have identified many of the genes involved in the main forms of DSD, and have uncovered variations in these genes that have subtle effects on a person's anatomical or physiological sex. What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions. “I think there's much greater diversity within male or female, and there is certainly an area of overlap where some people can't easily define themselves within the binary structure,” says John Achermann, who studies sex development and endocrinology at University College London's Institute of Child Health.

These discoveries do not sit well in a world in which sex is still defined in binary terms. Few legal systems allow for any ambiguity in biological sex, and a person's legal rights and social status can be heavily influenced by whether their birth certificate says male or female.

“The main problem with a strong dichotomy is that there are intermediate cases that push the limits and ask us to figure out exactly where the dividing line is between males and females,” says Arthur Arnold at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies biological sex differences. “And that's often a very difficult problem, because sex can be defined a number of ways.”

I'm the Op of that quote. Here's the thing. You don't get to tell us what we think. I think people today are overindulged in their feelings. I have a lot of characteristics about me that don't really feel right - I always felt out of step with my age,,weight, other physical characteristics. In my head I feel the most like a different appearance/different age/different ethnic background person. But I'm still my age/myappearance/my ethnicity. I'm not running around saying, no, I now identify as this other thing, so treat me that way and give me all the things that go along with that. It's ridiculous. Tons of people are not comfortable in their own skin. I could spend thousands of dollars on surgery to deal with some of this things, but it still wouldn't change me. We have separated out gender as one of these things to take seriously when people feel like they don't fit, but in reality we could have picked something else and called the gender identity thing foolish.

But even with that - go back to my other point. What harm does it do me if someone is going down that path, spends the time, effort, and energy to live as something other than the hand they were dealt? None whatsoever. We tolerate all kinds of characteristics about people, and we already have laws that protect us against any actual crimes that could be committed by anyone - assault, rape, etc. I believe you treat all people with kindness and respect, and let people alone to deal with their own stuff in their own way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Because they do not want to be arrested if they use the restroom.

Ah. But they are using the wrong restroom, as is clearly designated by signage. Can they not read? Is this really a literacy issue, perhaps?

I don't know what public restrooms you use, but the public restrooms I use typically have signs that say "men/women", not "people with penises/people with vulvas", not "people whose original birth certificates say M/people whose original birth certificates say F", and certainly not "people with XX chromosomes/people with XY chromosomes". In fact I have never seen any public restroom that used any of the latter three signs.

Right. Let's go with that. Men/ Women on restroom doors. Glad you've seen that and know the general subject matter.

Now, this is where it might get complicated.

You see, men have certain outward biological parts, and women have another set of biological parts. They are in no way the same, nor easily confused. These outward biological parts correspond to the chromosomes that make up the very essence of the person or persons we are discussing.

Are you with me so far? Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

Actually, if you at all believe in science, some things are relatively simple, because they are stated facts. Please don't tell me that I also have to convince you that climate change is real, or perhaps evolution? Are you making up your own facts there, too?

Aw, that's so cute. Such a simple, simple mind you have. Must be nice, hearing all the "la la la" in your head all day long.

[Anonymous]

I think people need to see the big picture. It doesn't matter if nay of us understand transgender identity or accept it. What we should do is see that this is a real issue

If we force transgender people who are passing into the biological bathroom here is what happens:

1. Women passing as men will be in the women's bathroom, which is like a giant billboard that he or she is transgender which means harassment--being forced out of the bathroom or being questioned because they look like a man but have boy parts.

Being suspected of being one of the phantom creepers OP and her ilk imagine, and facing harassment form the police for "breaking the law."

2. Men passing as women being harassed and assaulted in the men's room--this happens, a lot.

3. The effect on me as a woman: ZERO. ZILCH. A stall, a lock, and I am clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, if you at all believe in science, some things are relatively simple, because they are stated facts. Please don't tell me that I also have to convince you that climate change is real, or perhaps evolution? Are you making up your own facts there, too?

Correct. But according to science, the relationships between chromosomes, genitalia, sex, and gender are actually not simple. Some of us like to believe that they are, but the fact is that they're not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, if you at all believe in science, some things are relatively simple, because they are stated facts. Please don't tell me that I also have to convince you that climate change is real, or perhaps evolution? Are you making up your own facts there, too?

Correct. But according to science, the relationships between chromosomes, genitalia, sex, and gender are actually not simple. Some of us like to believe that they are, but the fact is that they're not.

+1 and op of this comment and others, you ended your own argument when you said no one gets to tell you what you think. You don't get to tell trans* people what to think and what it means for them either. So I guess we all agree on something! Case closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, if you at all believe in science, some things are relatively simple, because they are stated facts. Please don't tell me that I also have to convince you that climate change is real, or perhaps evolution? Are you making up your own facts there, too?

Correct. But according to science, the relationships between chromosomes, genitalia, sex, and gender are actually not simple. Some of us like to believe that they are, but the fact is that they're not.

+1 and op of this comment and others, you ended your own argument when you said no one gets to tell you what you think. You don't get to tell trans* people what to think and what it means for them either. So I guess we all agree on something! Case closed.

Do I "get to tell you" that it's not going to be 90 degrees and sunny outside today? Or that 2 x 3 does not equal 15, no matter how much you wish it did? Or are you going to dispute those fact as well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be perfectly okay with everybody, male and female, all just using unisex bathrooms. I have a tween daughter, but she has a father and brothers, so an accidental glimpse of something isn't going to be a big deal. However, I am struggling with how to explain the idea of transgenderism to her, more so than her brothers, because I am very uncomfortable with the gender stereotypes that are inherent in the idea that someone feels like a man or a woman on the inside. What does that mean? It seems mostly cultural. I don't want her to absorb the idea, one that was pushed on me as a young girl and young woman interested in a field of work that was not traditionally female (or any type of work at all, according to my family), that being a girl on the inside means that you like certain subjects at school, certain colors, certain types of books, or sports, etc.

A transgender person isn't necessarily gay. Just like Caitlyn Jenner who said she would continue to date women then went back on it a year later and said she would think of dating men well if she's attracted to women still then she'll be attracted to the women she's using the bathroom with and if she's pre-op well then that is where things would get weird.

Right. So, you have people like Laverne Cox's character Sophia on OITNB, who was a straight man, and is now a lesbian. And you have people like Carmen Carrera, who was a gay man, and now is a straight woman.

Where you lost me was "things getting weird" when someone is attracted to someone else in the bathroom. Surely, that happens sometimes when people of the same birth gender use the bathroom. Is it awkward for gay men or lesbians? It's certainly something that would merit a conversation in a relationship whether a trans* person is pre- or post-op.

If the tg person still has their penis and is attracted to and dating women and using the same bathroom whose to say a straight man wont enter the bathroom dressed as a woman to rape a woman? Rape is very common.