Secular family values rock!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:......

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

I disagree. While the message is important, it's not unique and Christianity also places a very high premium on who said it. You can find the same ideas about brotherly love and peace coming from other authors. To quote Tim Keller "If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; if he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead." Keller isn't some radical Christian fundamentalist either and so I'm assuming his opinion is pretty typical of Christianity.

What then makes Jesus so special? His message isn't unique. It's all the supernatural stuff surrounding him.

yes, supernatural stuff for sure

lol @ Jesus' message being unique!

Buddha:
1. There is Suffering Suffering is common to all.
2. Cause of Suffering We are the cause of our suffering.
3. End of Suffering Stop doing what causes suffering.
4. Path to end Suffering Everyone can be enlightened.

I shall not fear anyone on Earth.
I shall fear only God.
I shall not bear ill will toward anyone.
I shall not submit to injustice from anyone.
I shall conquer untruth by truth. And in resisting untruth, I shall put up with all suffering.
– Mahatma Gandhi

The Jews respect Moses:
And in that passage of the Gospel where John records Jesus telling Nicodemus, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the son of man be lifted up, so that whoever responds to him may have everlasting life." What John is referring to is an incident that happened, and recorded in the Jewish Scriptures, about when the people were traveling through the desert.

They were overwhelmed at one point with scorpions that were bringing devastation to the people -- or serpents, I should say. And Moses instructed them to raise a pole in the desert and place a serpent on that. And when the people looked at it, to me it's a way of looking at your sinfulness, exposing it. Then you can be healed because again, God is waiting to be gracious to us. And so whoever responds to God in Jesus, who is in God come into our human history, will not be lost, but will have eternal life.

There are common threads among all of these religious beliefs.

Jesus is no different from the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are large numbers of religious peoples of all faith who not only recognize that the message of their religion is not unique, they actually value all the other sources of this message. Just because the message is not unique does not mean that you have to disown your particular source of that message. Many people even believe in some or all of the "supernatural" parts of their religion, and respect the "supernatural" parts of other religions.

Is it confusing? Yes, it is. Some of us are comfortable with something that people can not quite understand. Some of us know that, just as most people can not understand in detail (to the ability to do calculations with concrete predictions) einstein's theory of relativity, but neverthessless believe in it, maybe all people really just can not understand a "truth" that is echoed in many religions, including the one they value.

So in sum, you're picking and choosing what you like and discarding what you don't. Based on what, exactly? Again - cognitive dissonance. Nothing more. Good luck.

which means that a NEW religion is branching off from one with an "established" set of guidelines

People do this all the time. They redefine beliefs based on surroundings/events/experiences that shaped them. Do you think this wasn't occurring since the start of time?

Religions have different prophets. Should Jesus trump Muhammad? And that's exactly where we end up - prophet fighting prophet. good versus good! lol

What if aliens existed? And let's say the apocalypse occurred. Would it only affect us on Earth or would it affect our universe? What if the one-eyed green ET from Tsaurus had a different god? What if multiple gods existed?

What if . . .

But how many of you ask yourself, "What if?" b/c if you did you'd start to question how insignificant we all are in the big scheme of things - Yet these religious beliefs somehow create an arrogant barrier that's impervious to the "What if?"

It's safer - more comforting - to stay in your cocoons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's not given up, it's turned over -- another concept that people without faith don't understand.

LOL, that's like an alcoholic saying that he has self control just like anyone else, except "it's turned over" when he got drunk over, and over, and over.

PP who doesn't think you'll "EVER" like me--that's fine, I can totally live with that.

I may have found your new bff, though. You probably think this post from upthread at 11/10 is "reasonable contribution" to the discussion, that it furthers everybody's understanding of the intellectual fine points, that there's no risk it would derail the thread, and so on. (That wasn't my post at the top about turning over control, BTW.) It's the first and least offensive of the alcoholic comparisons, and it wasn't deleted with the other alcoholic comparisons because it was relatively mild next to them. So if abuse on a scale that exceeds this is your idea of a "reasonable contribution" then she's your fellow traveler and I wish you both joy....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are large numbers of religious peoples of all faith who not only recognize that the message of their religion is not unique, they actually value all the other sources of this message. Just because the message is not unique does not mean that you have to disown your particular source of that message. Many people even believe in some or all of the "supernatural" parts of their religion, and respect the "supernatural" parts of other religions.

Is it confusing? Yes, it is. Some of us are comfortable with something that people can not quite understand. Some of us know that, just as most people can not understand in detail (to the ability to do calculations with concrete predictions) einstein's theory of relativity, but neverthessless believe in it, maybe all people really just can not understand a "truth" that is echoed in many religions, including the one they value.

Well put, PP.

It's a lot more sophisticated than mere "picking and choosing." PP makes it sound like picking out a drink at Starbucks... hmm, which is the sweetest and smoothest? No, it's not like that at all. Lots of religious folks from ALL religions do the hard work of reading theologians and historians before forming their opinions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:......

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

I disagree. While the message is important, it's not unique and Christianity also places a very high premium on who said it. You can find the same ideas about brotherly love and peace coming from other authors. To quote Tim Keller "If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; if he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead." Keller isn't some radical Christian fundamentalist either and so I'm assuming his opinion is pretty typical of Christianity.

What then makes Jesus so special? His message isn't unique. It's all the supernatural stuff surrounding him.

yes, supernatural stuff for sure

lol @ Jesus' message being unique!

Buddha:
1. There is Suffering Suffering is common to all.
2. Cause of Suffering We are the cause of our suffering.
3. End of Suffering Stop doing what causes suffering.
4. Path to end Suffering Everyone can be enlightened.

I shall not fear anyone on Earth.
I shall fear only God.
I shall not bear ill will toward anyone.
I shall not submit to injustice from anyone.
I shall conquer untruth by truth. And in resisting untruth, I shall put up with all suffering.
– Mahatma Gandhi

The Jews respect Moses:
And in that passage of the Gospel where John records Jesus telling Nicodemus, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the son of man be lifted up, so that whoever responds to him may have everlasting life." What John is referring to is an incident that happened, and recorded in the Jewish Scriptures, about when the people were traveling through the desert.

They were overwhelmed at one point with scorpions that were bringing devastation to the people -- or serpents, I should say. And Moses instructed them to raise a pole in the desert and place a serpent on that. And when the people looked at it, to me it's a way of looking at your sinfulness, exposing it. Then you can be healed because again, God is waiting to be gracious to us. And so whoever responds to God in Jesus, who is in God come into our human history, will not be lost, but will have eternal life.

There are common threads among all of these religious beliefs.

Jesus is no different from the rest.

Even this cherry-picked, very superficial compilation shows differences, at least in the areas where you've managed to compare and contrast on overlapping issues, which isn't much. And LOL, leaving aside huge differences you didn't mention, like there's no God in Buddhism. But that's neither here nor there.

Big shrug. As another PP said, people of many religions believe that God talks to different people in different ways at different times.

So tell us something we don't know....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

which means that a NEW religion is branching off from one with an "established" set of guidelines

People do this all the time. They redefine beliefs based on surroundings/events/experiences that shaped them. Do you think this wasn't occurring since the start of time?

Religions have different prophets. Should Jesus trump Muhammad? And that's exactly where we end up - prophet fighting prophet. good versus good! lol

What if aliens existed? And let's say the apocalypse occurred. Would it only affect us on Earth or would it affect our universe? What if the one-eyed green ET from Tsaurus had a different god? What if multiple gods existed?

What if . . .

But how many of you ask yourself, "What if?" b/c if you did you'd start to question how insignificant we all are in the big scheme of things - Yet these religious beliefs somehow create an arrogant barrier that's impervious to the "What if?"

It's safer - more comforting - to stay in your cocoons.

So we should all create an infinite number of straw men in order to reach a better "understanding"? LOL. Not sure how many logical fallacies would get you thrown off the debate team here. Arguing straw men for sure, but also solipsism, false dilemma, sweeping generalization.... Too many rhetorical problems here to count.

Here's one for you: what if Moses and Jesus and Mohammed really were sent/inspired by God? Maybe leave your own cocoon to ponder this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

which means that a NEW religion is branching off from one with an "established" set of guidelines

People do this all the time. They redefine beliefs based on surroundings/events/experiences that shaped them. Do you think this wasn't occurring since the start of time?

Religions have different prophets. Should Jesus trump Muhammad? And that's exactly where we end up - prophet fighting prophet. good versus good! lol

What if aliens existed? And let's say the apocalypse occurred. Would it only affect us on Earth or would it affect our universe? What if the one-eyed green ET from Tsaurus had a different god? What if multiple gods existed?

What if . . .

But how many of you ask yourself, "What if?" b/c if you did you'd start to question how insignificant we all are in the big scheme of things - Yet these religious beliefs somehow create an arrogant barrier that's impervious to the "What if?"

It's safer - more comforting - to stay in your cocoons.

So we should all create an infinite number of straw men in order to reach a better "understanding"? LOL. Not sure how many logical fallacies would get you thrown off the debate team here. Arguing straw men for sure, but also solipsism, false dilemma, sweeping generalization.... Too many rhetorical problems here to count.

Here's one for you: what if Moses and Jesus and Mohammed really were sent/inspired by God? Maybe leave your own cocoon to ponder this.

[Anonymous]

When the God of the one-eyed green ET from Taurus sends us a sign, I'll consider worshipping or obeying or whatever she wants.

Until then I'll stick with the Bible, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus made the golden rule

Nope, it's a concept that is a lot older... Here are a couple from 500 years prior to Jesus

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucian Analects 15:23

"There is nothing dearer to man than himself; therefore, as it is the same thing that is dear to you and to others, hurt not others with what pains yourself" - Buddha - Dhammapada, Northern Canon, 5:18

It's also the most important rule, according to Mark 12:30-31

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I went in grieving deeply and came out wishing I could clear my head of the hateful rants of a very angry man. And so glad we're not raising our kids religiously."

You do realize most Christian churches do not operate this way?

I'm glad we are raising our kids with Christianity, certainly not this misrepresentation of it. Do what you want in your own home, but don't paint religion with such a broad brush.

That's what makes me laugh. You are raising your children in a "Christian" household. However, your Christianity is different from someone else's idea of Christianity. So what's the sense of following a religion when beliefs are all over the place?

totally ridiculous this a la carte approach to believing in some higher entity

But God knows who got it right and those people will be rewarded in heaven. Others will go to hell, or if there is no hell, will just lose consciousness and be dead forever like the atheists think will happen and like what most people think happens to all other non-human beings.

Some people, Christian or not, think that all "good" people will go to heaven, even atheists, but there's no way of knowing that. It's certainly not in the Bible,but that doesn't stop some Christians from believing it. It just seems so logical that good people shouldn't suffer eternally. But the focus of religion is not logic -- it's faith.

Including the Pope, who said that "even the atheists can go to heaven":
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-atheists-heaven-article-1.1354151

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

what? You make no sense.

The move from polytheistic to monotheistic belief systems - based on pagan thought - goes against Christian beliefs, as it negates the idea of Jesus and an all-powerful, all-loving God.

It's not a matter of making sense - It's simply a report on what and how some Christians believe and what is taught in some adult Christian education classes, corroborated by another poster.

Yup. It's also important to understand that questioning the virgin birth does not mean that you reject the Christian message or instantly become an atheist.

Atheists don't become atheists instantly -- it's usually the result of a lot of thought and study -- or else they were just born that way -- not susceptible to belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming to your own conclusions is not faith, it's skepticism.

People of faith know what faith is. If it feels like faith, then it's faith. They can be skeptical of some things - like the honesty of politicians or car salesmen, but when it comes to their faith, they believe what they want to believe.

People without faith can't understand this. To them it seems like silliness, lack of intellect or some kind of weird blindspot. But people of faith understand and are not fazed. They know that they are just as intelligent and analytical and skeptical as anyone else about matters unrelated to their religious faith.

You can call a pumpkin a volkswagen all you want, but you are only fooling yourself and looking stupid in front of others. Religious faith grow stronger by overcoming skepticism, not yielding to it. Don't conflate religious faith with general usage of "faith", which is assumptions made about the world based on observable and empirical evidence, such as honesty of politicians or car salesmen. Religious faith has no basis in evidence.

Why not be equally skeptical about what you believe in terms of the origins of this world and our species? Why must you give up your intelligence and analytical abilities when practicing your religion?

It's not given up, it's turned over -- another concept that people without faith don't understand.

different poster here:
This is precisely why I'm raising my kids godfree: because I believe that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god wouldn't suddenly decide to endow a species with free will, intellect and deductive skills and then tell one guy (or a series of guys who put a bunch of writings together and proclaim it god's book) to tell everybody else to turn off those skills and "follow me."

Follow me of course means "check your brain at the door, do whatever I write or translate no matter how brutal or biased and do it unquestioningly. Oh, and all nonbelievers are infidels condemned to burn in hell. Also, give me your $$ unquestioningly."

God doesn't need $$ remember? Jesus said "give to god what is god's and Caesar what is Caesar's."

It's your book. If Jesus said to love one another is the highest law and give to Caesar what is Caesar's, then you can't turn around and say he didn't say those things, unless of course you question the validity of the book and it's writers, translators and interpreters, which would be a major growth step.
Oh and Jesus never said anything about the origin of the species at all. That's in Genesis. Just observe Catholic schools: the Creation story is taught in Religion class and evolution is taught in Biology, so somewhere people are allowed to question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I went in grieving deeply and came out wishing I could clear my head of the hateful rants of a very angry man. And so glad we're not raising our kids religiously."

You do realize most Christian churches do not operate this way?

I'm glad we are raising our kids with Christianity, certainly not this misrepresentation of it. Do what you want in your own home, but don't paint religion with such a broad brush.

That's what makes me laugh. You are raising your children in a "Christian" household. However, your Christianity is different from someone else's idea of Christianity. So what's the sense of following a religion when beliefs are all over the place?

totally ridiculous this a la carte approach to believing in some higher entity

But God knows who got it right and those people will be rewarded in heaven. Others will go to hell, or if there is no hell, will just lose consciousness and be dead forever like the atheists think will happen and like what most people think happens to all other non-human beings.

Some people, Christian or not, think that all "good" people will go to heaven, even atheists, but there's no way of knowing that. It's certainly not in the Bible,but that doesn't stop some Christians from believing it. It just seems so logical that good people shouldn't suffer eternally. But the focus of religion is not logic -- it's faith.

Including the Pope, who said that "even the atheists can go to heaven":
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-atheists-heaven-article-1.1354151

+2. Lots of us think there are many paths to Heaven. We believe God cares about your actions towards your fellow man and not whether you eat the right food or believe every obscure point of doctrine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

what? You make no sense.

The move from polytheistic to monotheistic belief systems - based on pagan thought - goes against Christian beliefs, as it negates the idea of Jesus and an all-powerful, all-loving God.

It's not a matter of making sense - It's simply a report on what and how some Christians believe and what is taught in some adult Christian education classes, corroborated by another poster.

Yup. It's also important to understand that questioning the virgin birth does not mean that you reject the Christian message or instantly become an atheist.

The faith that a truly religious persona has ultimately overcomes all questioning and doubt. It's not that sophisticated, thinking Christians don't continue to doubt hard-to-believe things like the virgin birth or the resurrection, it's just that faith ultimately wins out. There are people who will say outright that they don't believe in those things, but they still consider themselves to be Christians. Being religious is important to them. They can't imagine being atheist. It seems so cold and empty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I went in grieving deeply and came out wishing I could clear my head of the hateful rants of a very angry man. And so glad we're not raising our kids religiously."

You do realize most Christian churches do not operate this way?

I'm glad we are raising our kids with Christianity, certainly not this misrepresentation of it. Do what you want in your own home, but don't paint religion with such a broad brush.

That's what makes me laugh. You are raising your children in a "Christian" household. However, your Christianity is different from someone else's idea of Christianity. So what's the sense of following a religion when beliefs are all over the place?

totally ridiculous this a la carte approach to believing in some higher entity

But God knows who got it right and those people will be rewarded in heaven. Others will go to hell, or if there is no hell, will just lose consciousness and be dead forever like the atheists think will happen and like what most people think happens to all other non-human beings.

Some people, Christian or not, think that all "good" people will go to heaven, even atheists, but there's no way of knowing that. It's certainly not in the Bible,but that doesn't stop some Christians from believing it. It just seems so logical that good people shouldn't suffer eternally. But the focus of religion is not logic -- it's faith.

Including the Pope, who said that "even the atheists can go to heaven":
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-atheists-heaven-article-1.1354151

+2. Lots of us think there are many paths to Heaven. We believe God cares about your actions towards your fellow man and not whether you eat the right food or believe every obscure point of doctrine.

There are other believers who do think that what you eat and whether you follow doctrine is very important. Regardless of your specific religious beliefs, what matters is having faith. We are all children of God. Even Atheists. They just don't realize it.