Secular family values rock!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is precisely why I'm raising my kids godfree: because I believe that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god wouldn't suddenly decide to endow a species with free will, intellect and deductive skills and then tell one guy (or a series of guys who put a bunch of writings together and proclaim it god's book) to tell everybody else to turn off those skills and "follow me."

Follow me of course means "check your brain at the door, do whatever I write or translate no matter how brutal or biased and do it unquestioningly. Oh, and all nonbelievers are infidels condemned to burn in hell. Also, give me your $$ unquestioningly."

God doesn't need $$ remember? Jesus said "give to god what is god's and Caesar what is Caesar's."

It's your book. If Jesus said to love one another is the highest law and give to Caesar what is Caesar's, then you can't turn around and say he didn't say those things, unless of course you question the validity of the book and it's writers, translators and interpreters, which would be a major growth step.
Oh and Jesus never said anything about the origin of the species at all. That's in Genesis. Just observe Catholic schools: the Creation story is taught in Religion class and evolution is taught in Biology, so somewhere people are allowed to question.

You seem to be addressing the minority of bible/Quran literalists and creationists. But that's not who's on this thread. For example I believe in evolution (and I'm Protestant).

Anyway, you don't seem to understand free will. As a threshold step you're still free to decide whether to follow (and many atheists have decided not to follow). Then you can decide (after research, not on a whim like another PP thinks) what to think about the follow-me guy (perhaps you haven't been following the previous pages where posters were questioning whether the "follow me" guy was born of a virgin). Then there's a whole lifetime of subtle decisions every "follower" makes, about whether what they're doing at the time is consistent with "live your neighbor".

Correct, Jesus never mentioned evolution. Or condemned homosexuality. Or said women weren't equal. Not sure where you were going with that, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is precisely why I'm raising my kids godfree: because I believe that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god wouldn't suddenly decide to endow a species with free will, intellect and deductive skills and then tell one guy (or a series of guys who put a bunch of writings together and proclaim it god's book) to tell everybody else to turn off those skills and "follow me."

Follow me of course means "check your brain at the door, do whatever I write or translate no matter how brutal or biased and do it unquestioningly. Oh, and all nonbelievers are infidels condemned to burn in hell. Also, give me your $$ unquestioningly."

God doesn't need $$ remember? Jesus said "give to god what is god's and Caesar what is Caesar's."

It's your book. If Jesus said to love one another is the highest law and give to Caesar what is Caesar's, then you can't turn around and say he didn't say those things, unless of course you question the validity of the book and it's writers, translators and interpreters, which would be a major growth step.
Oh and Jesus never said anything about the origin of the species at all. That's in Genesis. Just observe Catholic schools: the Creation story is taught in Religion class and evolution is taught in Biology, so somewhere people are allowed to question.

You seem to be addressing the minority of bible/Quran literalists and creationists. But that's not who's on this thread. For example I believe in evolution (and I'm Protestant).

Anyway, you don't seem to understand free will. As a threshold step you're still free to decide whether to follow (and many atheists have decided not to follow). Then you can decide (after research, not on a whim like another PP thinks) what to think about the follow-me guy (perhaps you haven't been following the previous pages where posters were questioning whether the "follow me" guy was born of a virgin). Then there's a whole lifetime of subtle decisions every "follower" makes, about whether what they're doing at the time is consistent with "live your neighbor".

Correct, Jesus never mentioned evolution. Or condemned homosexuality. Or said women weren't equal. Not sure where you were going with that, though.

Atheists are not all alike -- the one thing they have in common is that they don't believe in god. Christians are not all alike either. They don't all believe the same things in the same way. TO some, Jesus is the undisputed Son of God, come to wash our sins away and offer eternal life if we believe in him. To others, he's a wise 1st century Jewish teacher worth following 2,000 years later - the circumstances of his birth or death are immaterial.

Atheists think t's weird that there can be so much variation in the same religion. But as can be seen by some of the responses here, some Christians don't think it's weird at all. In fact, they think it's educated and sophisticated. At the same time, some other Christians think those people will end up in hell, along with the atheists, because they don't follow the Bible.

I think these discussions are useful, because it helps atheists understand that all Christians don't see things in black and white, and they can't expect that pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible and similarities with other ancient stories will make any difference to people who have decided to believe whatever they choose to believe.

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists. They change their minds when faced with evidence. But information and logic often lose out to faith.

[Anonymous]

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

which means that a NEW religion is branching off from one with an "established" set of guidelines

People do this all the time. They redefine beliefs based on surroundings/events/experiences that shaped them. Do you think this wasn't occurring since the start of time?

Religions have different prophets. Should Jesus trump Muhammad? And that's exactly where we end up - prophet fighting prophet. good versus good! lol

What if aliens existed? And let's say the apocalypse occurred. Would it only affect us on Earth or would it affect our universe? What if the one-eyed green ET from Tsaurus had a different god? What if multiple gods existed?

What if . . .

But how many of you ask yourself, "What if?" b/c if you did you'd start to question how insignificant we all are in the big scheme of things - Yet these religious beliefs somehow create an arrogant barrier that's impervious to the "What if?"

It's safer - more comforting - to stay in your cocoons.

So we should all create an infinite number of straw men in order to reach a better "understanding"? LOL. Not sure how many logical fallacies would get you thrown off the debate team here. Arguing straw men for sure, but also solipsism, false dilemma, sweeping generalization.... Too many rhetorical problems here to count.

Here's one for you: what if Moses and Jesus and Mohammed really were sent/inspired by God? Maybe leave your own cocoon to ponder this.

I guess comparative religion was a course you slept through in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

what? You make no sense.

The move from polytheistic to monotheistic belief systems - based on pagan thought - goes against Christian beliefs, as it negates the idea of Jesus and an all-powerful, all-loving God.

It's not a matter of making sense - It's simply a report on what and how some Christians believe and what is taught in some adult Christian education classes, corroborated by another poster.

Yup. It's also important to understand that questioning the virgin birth does not mean that you reject the Christian message or instantly become an atheist.

The faith that a truly religious persona has ultimately overcomes all questioning and doubt. It's not that sophisticated, thinking Christians don't continue to doubt hard-to-believe things like the virgin birth or the resurrection, it's just that faith ultimately wins out. There are people who will say outright that they don't believe in those things, but they still consider themselves to be Christians. Being religious is important to them. They can't imagine being atheist. It seems so cold and empty.

I've never been described as "cold and empty." quite the opposite in fact

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

Nice try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

Nice try.

great answer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

Nice try.

great answer

Hehe. Didn't see any threatened people on this thread, only people annoyed by the vacuous trolling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

Nice try.

great answer

Hehe. Didn't see any threatened people on this thread, only people annoyed by the vacuous trolling.

One threatened person, I'd say, who calls "troll" to any questioning of Christian beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's also true that some people are affected by new information. That's how many Christians become atheists.

It’s also how many atheists become Christians.

True, I know some.

It's also interesting how many atheists are proselytizers. We all know at least one--top PP, by her veiled admission.

And interesting to see how many Christians are threatened by atheists. Actually it could be only one or two here, but they seem terribly threatened. Not confident in their faith at all.

Nice try.

great answer

Hehe. Didn't see any threatened people on this thread, only people annoyed by the vacuous trolling.

One threatened person, I'd say, who calls "troll" to any questioning of Christian beliefs.

A troll is a troll, nothing wrong with labeling it. Also the troll wasn't dishing any serious "questions", just crude insults.

[Anonymous]

The atheist troll reminds me of when I lived in Europe. Yes! You had to listen to endless pig-ignorant and arrogant criticisms of the US (and I say that as a die-hard lefty who supports Obama and LGBT rights and marched against the Iraq war).

DCUM's atheist troll suffers from the same diseases of pig ignorance, arrogance, and inability to grasp subtlety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The atheist troll reminds me of when I lived in Europe. Yes! You had to listen to endless pig-ignorant and arrogant criticisms of the US (and I say that as a die-hard lefty who supports Obama and LGBT rights and marched against the Iraq war).

DCUM's atheist troll suffers from the same diseases of pig ignorance, arrogance, and inability to grasp subtlety.

And let me deflect what's coming: you're going to call me a hypocritical religious person. Nope, you're a troll who dishes unthinking insults.

Pointing that out isn't insulting you. It's just labeling you truthfully!

[Anonymous]

Why are you all lumping several people under Atheist Troll? We are legion.