Secular family values rock!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

I remember the posts that were deleted. They were abusive in language and tone. As just one example, they equated believers to drug addicts and alcoholics, and called them "stupid" many times over. Nothing "reasoned" about them. Good for the moderator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

I remember the posts that were deleted. They were abusive in language and tone. As just one example, they equated believers to drug addicts and alcoholics, and called them "stupid" many times over. Nothing "reasoned" about them. Good for the moderator.

So why repeat the content if you agree that such thoughts shouldn't be posted here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

what? You make no sense.

The move from polytheistic to monotheistic belief systems - based on pagan thought - goes against Christian beliefs, as it negates the idea of Jesus and an all-powerful, all-loving God.

It's not a matter of making sense - It's simply a report on what and how some Christians believe and what is taught in some adult Christian education classes, corroborated by another poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

Perhaps you could report the posts that use the language you find offensive and see what happens

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

what? You make no sense.

The move from polytheistic to monotheistic belief systems - based on pagan thought - goes against Christian beliefs, as it negates the idea of Jesus and an all-powerful, all-loving God.

It's not a matter of making sense - It's simply a report on what and how some Christians believe and what is taught in some adult Christian education classes, corroborated by another poster.

Yup. It's also important to understand that questioning the virgin birth does not mean that you reject the Christian message or instantly become an atheist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, many of us religious folk don't think you have to "turn over" your intellect to believe. PP may think that. But lots of us engage in tons of critical study of our religions, reading alternative POVs and historical research. I certainly have done all of this (and yet I still believe, go figure).

New posters to this thread. This is interesting. What's your religion and can you point me to some of these sources you consider to be most powerful in convincing you it's true?

That was my post. I didn't say that I've read books that "convinced me it's true." Instead, I've read authors like Borg, Crossan, and Spong who are critical of major tenets of my religion (Christianity).

A key point here is that these authors and/or theologians aren't trying to convince the reader that God does or does not exist. Instead, they're arguing about points that are foundational in many modern-day churches' theologies, like the trinity or crucifixion. Sometimes I find their arguments convincing and other times I don't. Often they disagree with each other.

It's a game for wonks, and I happily cop to being a wonk. However, it's a million times more interesting than the trollish gibberish you see on DCUM--the unthinking repetition of stuff the troll has seen elsewhere, along the lines of "Jesus never existed" and snide quips about sky fairies. Why trolls think that childishness would convert any thinking person to atheism is beyond me!

Atheists have supplied to evidence to show that religion is bogus. Why do Christians fail to see the connection between Jesus/God/resurrection/virgin birth and pagan beliefs? It's all there. Furthermore, moving from polytheism to monotheism was a political move, as it centralized control over the masses, and the bible itself mentions the polytheistic practices of the Israelites.

No, you can't disprove God, but you can find evidence that supports the points I made above. I fail to see how using evidence is childish behavior. Who's the one doing the name calling and failing to produce evidence to support a claim?

Some educated Christians do see this connection --it's even taught in adult Christian education classes in some churches. They may not see Christianity that way their parents or grandparents did, but they are still solid Christians.

+1. These are the Borg and Crossan theses mentioned above, among other authors, and they are indeed taught in some adult church study groups. That's where I first ran into these ideas -- in church. What the troll fails to grasp, though, is that questioning things like the virgin birth by no means necessitates renouncing Jesus or his message.

You don't have to be "troll" to have difficulty grasping that a person -- or even a church full of people -- can doubt or not believe in the virgin birth and still accept Jesus as savior. It's been central tenet of Christianity for eons. This alternative interpretation has not been here for long and is not widely held.

There are some Christians who accept the whole thing as mythology, but still value it as such and still consider themselves Christian.

[Anonymous]

Church doctrine around things like the virgin birth isn't anywhere near as important as Jesus' message itself. Some of you are apparently having a hard time grasping this. But questioning a doctrinal point doesn't make us atheists. Just as the Christians who question the Trinity aren't automatically Muslims, despite what Muslim posters keep saying here. It's like DCUM changed its colors and fonts--you'd still come back to follow the content.

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

I remember the posts that were deleted. They were abusive in language and tone. As just one example, they equated believers to drug addicts and alcoholics, and called them "stupid" many times over. Nothing "reasoned" about them. Good for the moderator.

So why repeat the content if you agree that such thoughts shouldn't be posted here?

Huh? I presume the posts were deleted because they were disruptive and abusive, and therefore got in the way of our shared goal of "reasoned" conversation. Not because of anybody's urge to censorship or because anybody's feelings were hurt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:......

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

I disagree. While the message is important, it's not unique and Christianity also places a very high premium on who said it. You can find the same ideas about brotherly love and peace coming from other authors. To quote Tim Keller "If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; if he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead." Keller isn't some radical Christian fundamentalist either and so I'm assuming his opinion is pretty typical of Christianity.

What then makes Jesus so special? His message isn't unique. It's all the supernatural stuff surrounding him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:......

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

I disagree. While the message is important, it's not unique and Christianity also places a very high premium on who said it. You can find the same ideas about brotherly love and peace coming from other authors. To quote Tim Keller "If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; if he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead." Keller isn't some radical Christian fundamentalist either and so I'm assuming his opinion is pretty typical of Christianity.

What then makes Jesus so special? His message isn't unique. It's all the supernatural stuff surrounding him.

I had never heard of Tim Keller until just now, so I'm not ready to take his word as gospel, so to speak. But the point I and another poster have been making is that there are different views within Christianity. Keller is welcome to his views, of course. But you quoting him at me means nothing to me.

Christianity is actually pretty different from Judaism and Islam. This isn't the place to go into all the differences, but there are quite a few.

You've said repeatedly on this thread that believers are stupid and unthinking. Well, it's actually critical and independent thought that leads to the diversity of views you find so incomprehensible!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:......

The core of Christianity is Jesus' unique message. It's a message of godly and brotherly ove and peace that's very different from atheism.

I disagree. While the message is important, it's not unique and Christianity also places a very high premium on who said it. You can find the same ideas about brotherly love and peace coming from other authors. To quote Tim Keller "If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; if he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead." Keller isn't some radical Christian fundamentalist either and so I'm assuming his opinion is pretty typical of Christianity.

What then makes Jesus so special? His message isn't unique. It's all the supernatural stuff surrounding him.

I had never heard of Tim Keller until just now, so I'm not ready to take his word as gospel, so to speak. But the point I and another poster have been making is that there are different views within Christianity. Keller is welcome to his views, of course. But you quoting him at me means nothing to me.

Christianity is actually pretty different from Judaism and Islam. This isn't the place to go into all the differences, but there are quite a few.

You've said repeatedly on this thread that believers are stupid and unthinking. Well, it's actually critical and independent thought that leads to the diversity of views you find so incomprehensible!

I'm not the PP and haven't posted in this thread, despite what you may think.

I agree that Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam are different. That's not my point. What IS my point is that Jesus is core pillar of Christianity because of all the "god like" stuff that the Bible claims he did. His message isn't unique. Love thy neighbor, etc. was around long before he got onto the scene. It's the fact that he was a) God or b) the son of God that people hold him in high regard. I think to deny this is just an attempt to alleviate cognitive dissonance on the believer's part. Again, without the supernatural stuff none of Christianity is that earth shattering.

[Anonymous]

I think there are large numbers of religious peoples of all faith who not only recognize that the message of their religion is not unique, they actually value all the other sources of this message. Just because the message is not unique does not mean that you have to disown your particular source of that message. Many people even believe in some or all of the "supernatural" parts of their religion, and respect the "supernatural" parts of other religions.

Is it confusing? Yes, it is. Some of us are comfortable with something that people can not quite understand. Some of us know that, just as most people can not understand in detail (to the ability to do calculations with concrete predictions) einstein's theory of relativity, but neverthessless believe in it, maybe all people really just can not understand a "truth" that is echoed in many religions, including the one they value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does every.single.thread, even this one on *secular* values, have to be hijacked by this Christlian-hating troll? Sorry for your thread, atheists, although this hate-monger is one of your own.

Don't flatter yourself. Atheists don't focus on Christians in particular, all religions are irrational to us. It is you who make this about Christians. Some of my posts were deleted too. While the discussion was heated, I didn't call any one childish names, such as equating the counter party in an argument as monkies, or "Christian-hating troll". I put forth reasoned but firm arguments. It saddens me to see that the mods would resort to deleting posts in a thread just because one side had their feelings hurt and couldn't handle things on their own in a mature fashion. One of the benefits of an anonymous forum is that the ideas can flow a little more freely, as long as it didn't devolve into abusive personal attacks. This is disappointing.

I remember the posts that were deleted. They were abusive in language and tone. As just one example, they equated believers to drug addicts and alcoholics, and called them "stupid" many times over. Nothing "reasoned" about them. Good for the moderator.

I may be an atheist who has posted - and I may not EVER like you in person or through the screen - but I never mentioned drug addicts or alcoholics. And I certainly didn't add stupid to any of my posts. (although inferences can certainly be made)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are large numbers of religious peoples of all faith who not only recognize that the message of their religion is not unique, they actually value all the other sources of this message. Just because the message is not unique does not mean that you have to disown your particular source of that message. Many people even believe in some or all of the "supernatural" parts of their religion, and respect the "supernatural" parts of other religions.

Is it confusing? Yes, it is. Some of us are comfortable with something that people can not quite understand. Some of us know that, just as most people can not understand in detail (to the ability to do calculations with concrete predictions) einstein's theory of relativity, but neverthessless believe in it, maybe all people really just can not understand a "truth" that is echoed in many religions, including the one they value.

So in sum, you're picking and choosing what you like and discarding what you don't. Based on what, exactly? Again - cognitive dissonance. Nothing more. Good luck.