single income family/ SAHM major disadvantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a gen z son, recent college grad who landed a great job, but lives at home while he invests al his income he would otherwise spend on housing/commute/ utilities (we live 2 miles from his job). He is adamant that he only marries someone who put their education to work and earns an income. I think this generation (z) is acutely aware that it’s unrealistic in today’s economy to not have all hands on deck when raising a family.

I understand this attitude and largely agree with it, but I also think a lot of ambitious young people do not (and literally cannot) understand how significantly an infant/toddler will upend one’s working life and how differential these impacts are for women vs. men. Most modern workplace are still extremely hostile to breastfeeding and recovering new mothers.

I have a friend who was in a dual income household until they had their second kid - she was working in a rundown hospital, shuttling kids to and from daycares, lugging and rinsing out pumping equipment to use in a dark office room with a door that didn’t adequately lock, etc. After many open discussions she and her husband mutually agreed to her staying home for the next few years and then reevaluating later. She is much happier now. I wouldn’t want to be with a partner who rigidly demanded that I stay at an untenable job - I think it just has to be an ongoing open conversation and both parties have to be transparent and respectful of each other’s contributions.

How pathetic. Instead of stepping up to do more around the home and with childcare, he told her to quit her job and do everything? F***ing yikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is possible to have a single family income and SAHM but that requires a lot of lowered expectations.
No private school, almost no eating out, almost no vacations, hand me down clothing, etc...
The above is possible during the early years because who wants to take toddlers out to dinner or on vacation?

The sweet spot is to take advantage of full-time school to secure a part-time job. That would allow additional income to buttress the additional expenses of children's extracurriculars and the increasingly expensive family life.

SAHM-hood is great but gets awfully boring when the kids are late teens getting ready for college.
Having a mom who works is inspirational for kids too and gives them a model for "can-do".
I have been both and, well, each family is different with different needs.

You are correct. Every family is different with different needs. I have not yet found being SAHM/SAHW boring. When I am SAH-grandma, I will not find that boring too. How unevolved are you that you do not know what to do with your free time? If you can find fulfillment only in doing routine 9-5 work...well, that's on you. You are certainly serving someone's interest.

As a SAHM (DH makes decent amount) -
- we were able to afford a brand new SFH,
- we ate out very frequently,
- we had international vacations every year,
- my kids had all the gear and clothes that they needed,
- my kids went to magnet programs in public schools,
- they got full merit scholarships in state college, paying peanuts to major in dual majors,
- we always had a twice-weekly cleaner, lawn company, part time chef
- we entertained a lot and had help to do that.
- we had tutors and coaches for my kids, they had expensive ECs, and we travelled for the ECs, we could afford all the camps etc
- we have been able to save for all our needs - college, retirement, travel, kids weddings, kids cars, down payments for kids first condo etc.

Your kids need you even more in MS-HS years. And once my kids went to college, we continued to provide support and input to them. When you are a SAH grandmother, your kids may need you even more.

BTW - my DH is a very dedicated dad and as a SAHM, I made sure that all his free time was spent in spending time with the family, his hobbies, family travel, socializing, and family obligation. I could buy back time for him because I took care of everything else.

I have been in both situations - SAHM and WOHM. And no amount of outsourcing as a WOHM could make up for not having endless time with my children. However, I absolutely find it valuable to outsource all chores (except child rearing) that you can so that you have more time to be valuable to your kids well-being and growth, even as a SAHM - if you can afford it.

Being a SAHM (rich enough to outsource some routine work and tap into resources to create opportunities for your family and yourself) gives you and your family precious time.

Time is the only non-renewable resource in your life.

This... isn't a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean I'll also be honest, I work because I like it. I went to college and law school and pushed really hard because I like it. I think for me I'm a better mom for working, I don't think I'd do well mentally as a SAHM. I do a more flexible lawyer job so I'm home more.

Same. I need to work to avoid slipping into depression. I don't like anything domestic, like cooking or cleaning, but I don't mind managing household help. I would be a SAHM if DH brought in enough money that I could still hire out cooking and cleaning, and he agreed to continue letting me manage finances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in well paying jobs, I’ve noticed that the men with SAHMs notice the men with the same jobs but who have wives who work have less pressure and more income and are envious especially if the spouse has good enough hours they do a lot of the SAHM duties.

Yeah but what woman wants to work FT (or even nearly FT) and “do a lot of the SAHM duties”? Who would sign up for that?

As a SAHM to a high earner husband I do NOT think mine is the ideal. I think the ideal is TWO flexible family friends jobs with TWO fully engaged parents. But I didn’t know this when I got married at 24 to someone attending law school. My mom worked AND did everything at home and I saw how miserable she was. My dad worked but did nothing else.

Me. I do 75-80% of the "SAHM duties" and work 45 hours + a week. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment Seriously that's how our family runs best. "If you want things done, give them to a busy person."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is possible to have a single family income and SAHM but that requires a lot of lowered expectations.
No private school, almost no eating out, almost no vacations, hand me down clothing, etc...
The above is possible during the early years because who wants to take toddlers out to dinner or on vacation?

The sweet spot is to take advantage of full-time school to secure a part-time job. That would allow additional income to buttress the additional expenses of children's extracurriculars and the increasingly expensive family life.

SAHM-hood is great but gets awfully boring when the kids are late teens getting ready for college.
Having a mom who works is inspirational for kids too and gives them a model for "can-do".
I have been both and, well, each family is different with different needs.

You are correct. Every family is different with different needs. I have not yet found being SAHM/SAHW boring. When I am SAH-grandma, I will not find that boring too. How unevolved are you that you do not know what to do with your free time? If you can find fulfillment only in doing routine 9-5 work...well, that's on you. You are certainly serving someone's interest.

As a SAHM (DH makes decent amount) -
- we were able to afford a brand new SFH,
- we ate out very frequently,
- we had international vacations every year,
- my kids had all the gear and clothes that they needed,
- my kids went to magnet programs in public schools,
- they got full merit scholarships in state college, paying peanuts to major in dual majors,
- we always had a twice-weekly cleaner, lawn company, part time chef
- we entertained a lot and had help to do that.
- we had tutors and coaches for my kids, they had expensive ECs, and we travelled for the ECs, we could afford all the camps etc
- we have been able to save for all our needs - college, retirement, travel, kids weddings, kids cars, down payments for kids first condo etc.

Your kids need you even more in MS-HS years. And once my kids went to college, we continued to provide support and input to them. When you are a SAH grandmother, your kids may need you even more.

BTW - my DH is a very dedicated dad and as a SAHM, I made sure that all his free time was spent in spending time with the family, his hobbies, family travel, socializing, and family obligation. I could buy back time for him because I took care of everything else.

I have been in both situations - SAHM and WOHM. And no amount of outsourcing as a WOHM could make up for not having endless time with my children. However, I absolutely find it valuable to outsource all chores (except child rearing) that you can so that you have more time to be valuable to your kids well-being and growth, even as a SAHM - if you can afford it.

Being a SAHM (rich enough to outsource some routine work and tap into resources to create opportunities for your family and yourself) gives you and your family precious time.

Time is the only non-renewable resource in your life.

But you gave up having a work identity. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it is possible to have a single family income and SAHM but that requires a lot of lowered expectations.
No private school, almost no eating out, almost no vacations, hand me down clothing, etc...
The above is possible during the early years because who wants to take toddlers out to dinner or on vacation?

The sweet spot is to take advantage of full-time school to secure a part-time job. That would allow additional income to buttress the additional expenses of children's extracurriculars and the increasingly expensive family life.

SAHM-hood is great but gets awfully boring when the kids are late teens getting ready for college.
Having a mom who works is inspirational for kids too and gives them a model for "can-do".
I have been both and, well, each family is different with different needs.

You are correct. Every family is different with different needs. I have not yet found being SAHM/SAHW boring. When I am SAH-grandma, I will not find that boring too. How unevolved are you that you do not know what to do with your free time? If you can find fulfillment only in doing routine 9-5 work...well, that's on you. You are certainly serving someone's interest.

As a SAHM (DH makes decent amount) -
- we were able to afford a brand new SFH,
- we ate out very frequently,
- we had international vacations every year,
- my kids had all the gear and clothes that they needed,
- my kids went to magnet programs in public schools,
- they got full merit scholarships in state college, paying peanuts to major in dual majors,
- we always had a twice-weekly cleaner, lawn company, part time chef
- we entertained a lot and had help to do that.
- we had tutors and coaches for my kids, they had expensive ECs, and we travelled for the ECs, we could afford all the camps etc
- we have been able to save for all our needs - college, retirement, travel, kids weddings, kids cars, down payments for kids first condo etc.

Your kids need you even more in MS-HS years. And once my kids went to college, we continued to provide support and input to them. When you are a SAH grandmother, your kids may need you even more.

BTW - my DH is a very dedicated dad and as a SAHM, I made sure that all his free time was spent in spending time with the family, his hobbies, family travel, socializing, and family obligation. I could buy back time for him because I took care of everything else.

I have been in both situations - SAHM and WOHM. And no amount of outsourcing as a WOHM could make up for not having endless time with my children. However, I absolutely find it valuable to outsource all chores (except child rearing) that you can so that you have more time to be valuable to your kids well-being and growth, even as a SAHM - if you can afford it.

Being a SAHM (rich enough to outsource some routine work and tap into resources to create opportunities for your family and yourself) gives you and your family precious time.

Time is the only non-renewable resource in your life.

This 1000%

Having a SAHP means when everyone is together, they can be a family, and don't have to focus on "getting the basic chores and life done". When your spouse is HHI, sure you could be adding to the family $$$ but often it's at a level that is not noticed because it's not needed. We saved for retirement/college, went on very nice vacations (2-3 a year as a family, 2-3 as just the 2 of us), had cleaners/lawncare/etc and basically hired out everything except "taking care of the kids". Sure my spouse worked long hours, but they were going to do that as an executive (and moving up towards that as head of sales, etc) anyhow...you don't get to those positions or keep those positions with working 9-5 and leaving at 3pm 3 days a week for a kid's activity. Me being at home just allowed for more flexibility and much less stress (sick kid---no worries).

But me adding $200K that is taxed at almost 50% (when you include EVERYTHING) didn't seem worth it, because at some point, you don't "need more money". What you need is a peaceful life that reduces stress

Only if you want to provide a peaceful life to everyone else. You're reducing your husband's and kids' stress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a gen z son, recent college grad who landed a great job, but lives at home while he invests al his income he would otherwise spend on housing/commute/ utilities (we live 2 miles from his job). He is adamant that he only marries someone who put their education to work and earns an income. I think this generation (z) is acutely aware that it’s unrealistic in today’s economy to not have all hands on deck when raising a family.

I understand this attitude and largely agree with it, but I also think a lot of ambitious young people do not (and literally cannot) understand how significantly an infant/toddler will upend one’s working life and how differential these impacts are for women vs. men. Most modern workplace are still extremely hostile to breastfeeding and recovering new mothers.

I have a friend who was in a dual income household until they had their second kid - she was working in a rundown hospital, shuttling kids to and from daycares, lugging and rinsing out pumping equipment to use in a dark office room with a door that didn’t adequately lock, etc. After many open discussions she and her husband mutually agreed to her staying home for the next few years and then reevaluating later. She is much happier now. I wouldn’t want to be with a partner who rigidly demanded that I stay at an untenable job - I think it just has to be an ongoing open conversation and both parties have to be transparent and respectful of each other’s contributions.

How pathetic. Instead of stepping up to do more around the home and with childcare, he told her to quit her job and do everything? F***ing yikes.

That is not the story. They were both stepping up around the house; her job was rigid and unforgiving about her needing to pump breast milk, needing more flexible hours, etc.

I’m not saying it’s fair that women are the ones who often end up being semi-forced out (though in this case they both agreed to this arrangement); I’m just saying, it’s easy to think you’ll be able to keep going full throttle at a career post-kids until you actually are living it, and it’s important for both parties to be flexible and communicative

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a gen z son, recent college grad who landed a great job, but lives at home while he invests al his income he would otherwise spend on housing/commute/ utilities (we live 2 miles from his job). He is adamant that he only marries someone who put their education to work and earns an income. I think this generation (z) is acutely aware that it’s unrealistic in today’s economy to not have all hands on deck when raising a family.

I understand this attitude and largely agree with it, but I also think a lot of ambitious young people do not (and literally cannot) understand how significantly an infant/toddler will upend one’s working life and how differential these impacts are for women vs. men. Most modern workplace are still extremely hostile to breastfeeding and recovering new mothers.

I have a friend who was in a dual income household until they had their second kid - she was working in a rundown hospital, shuttling kids to and from daycares, lugging and rinsing out pumping equipment to use in a dark office room with a door that didn’t adequately lock, etc. After many open discussions she and her husband mutually agreed to her staying home for the next few years and then reevaluating later. She is much happier now. I wouldn’t want to be with a partner who rigidly demanded that I stay at an untenable job - I think it just has to be an ongoing open conversation and both parties have to be transparent and respectful of each other’s contributions.

How pathetic. Instead of stepping up to do more around the home and with childcare, he told her to quit her job and do everything? F***ing yikes.

That is not the story. They were both stepping up around the house; her job was rigid and unforgiving about her needing to pump breast milk, needing more flexible hours, etc.

I’m not saying it’s fair that women are the ones who often end up being semi-forced out (though in this case they both agreed to this arrangement); I’m just saying, it’s easy to think you’ll be able to keep going full throttle at a career post-kids until you actually are living it, and it’s important for both parties to be flexible and communicative

Oh that is the story, 100%. She was struggling with day care drop offs, did he help? No, he made her quit her job. What else did he refuse to help with and instead dumped it all on the woman? Fathers are parents too, its unfortunate that he couldn't support his wife by actually being a parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a gen z son, recent college grad who landed a great job, but lives at home while he invests al his income he would otherwise spend on housing/commute/ utilities (we live 2 miles from his job). He is adamant that he only marries someone who put their education to work and earns an income. I think this generation (z) is acutely aware that it’s unrealistic in today’s economy to not have all hands on deck when raising a family.

I understand this attitude and largely agree with it, but I also think a lot of ambitious young people do not (and literally cannot) understand how significantly an infant/toddler will upend one’s working life and how differential these impacts are for women vs. men. Most modern workplace are still extremely hostile to breastfeeding and recovering new mothers.

I have a friend who was in a dual income household until they had their second kid - she was working in a rundown hospital, shuttling kids to and from daycares, lugging and rinsing out pumping equipment to use in a dark office room with a door that didn’t adequately lock, etc. After many open discussions she and her husband mutually agreed to her staying home for the next few years and then reevaluating later. She is much happier now. I wouldn’t want to be with a partner who rigidly demanded that I stay at an untenable job - I think it just has to be an ongoing open conversation and both parties have to be transparent and respectful of each other’s contributions.

How pathetic. Instead of stepping up to do more around the home and with childcare, he told her to quit her job and do everything? F***ing yikes.

That is not the story. They were both stepping up around the house; her job was rigid and unforgiving about her needing to pump breast milk, needing more flexible hours, etc.

I’m not saying it’s fair that women are the ones who often end up being semi-forced out (though in this case they both agreed to this arrangement); I’m just saying, it’s easy to think you’ll be able to keep going full throttle at a career post-kids until you actually are living it, and it’s important for both parties to be flexible and communicative

My kids are in their 20s now, and my husband and I, along with many (not all) of our friends, went "full throttle" for 21 years while we had kids at home. Yes you have to be flexible and communicative but it's easier than ever for both spouses to do meaningful and lucrative full time work.

[Anonymous]

I think the big difference shows up when there is a significant downturn and layoffs--e.g., in 2008-9 I worked in finance and saw a lot of my peers get laid off. The ones with spouses that worked, even if it was at a lower-paying job, had a certain amount of stability that came from having a spouse with a job and benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the big difference shows up when there is a significant downturn and layoffs--e.g., in 2008-9 I worked in finance and saw a lot of my peers get laid off. The ones with spouses that worked, even if it was at a lower-paying job, had a certain amount of stability that came from having a spouse with a job and benefits.

Another big benefit is the people with working spouses generally have more ability to take risks and go into entrepreneurship, etc. Single-earner families have to be much more risk averse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big difference shows up when there is a significant downturn and layoffs--e.g., in 2008-9 I worked in finance and saw a lot of my peers get laid off. The ones with spouses that worked, even if it was at a lower-paying job, had a certain amount of stability that came from having a spouse with a job and benefits.

Another big benefit is the people with working spouses generally have more ability to take risks and go into entrepreneurship, etc. Single-earner families have to be much more risk averse.

They also are essentially raised in a single parent home with the working parent being an absentee parent.

[Anonymous]

Op here. Not in law so help me understand. My female friends with kids who are partners both have high income husband and are available to their kids, why can’t male partners do this and need a SAHM?

[Anonymous]

Every company I worked for 90 percent of jobs are just "cube dwellers" or jobs that just are not rewarding, this is men or women.

The women who live nears me who are doctors, work at rewarding non profits, lawyers etc all work.

The women who do repetitive no rewarding tasks dont. My wife did Credit card pricing. Yes she did speadsheets, updated prices, adjust card fees and sat in pricing meetings 20 hours a week then read long legal disclosures on pricing changes, then did print job and website review on pricing changes. It was boring tedious work that had to be done to perfection sitting in a cube 45 hours a week.

When my career finally took off a bit my annual bonus was her years salary, she was like I am not sitting in a cube missing my kids childhood for a year to make what you make in a day.

For her like many it was low pay, not rewarding work that did not help society

Guess what my job is not rewarding either but it pays better. And reason it paid better as with long hours some travel you could only did it with a stay at home spouse. At my level that company only one person had a working spouse. I got paid an extra 150K a year for that job. So my wife would need to make 150K just to break even and with childcare and costs to work adn commute more like she have to make 200K a year to break even.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Not in law so help me understand. My female friends with kids who are partners both have high income husband and are available to their kids, why can’t male partners do this and need a SAHM?

There are many male partners with working wives. But the socio cultural expectations on men as it relates to work and their identity is very high. Additionally they aren’t seen the same way if they ask for favors related to being a parent. Socio-cultural norms and expectations impact everyone.