What is with DCUM women and "mental loads?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Petula Dvorak wrote a tribute to a woman who died recently, and one of the things she/the widower celebrate is how she took care of everything.

This guy was 40 when he got married, so he had handled all his stuff on his own for decades. But as soon as he gets married, he dumps it on his wife.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/12/13/blind-government-lawyer-disabilities-rights/?%20va._2

Bad case for your argument. She was blind. He did all the cooking, all the driving, etc. They were a team. We could all learn from that.

He shopped and cooked and called it "helping." The piece says "he drove her everywhere," but someone commented that they used to see her at their Metro stop, so no, he didn't. Also, pretty weird to be impressed that the person who can see does the driving. The mental load is about what gets foisted on one partner when the other one could do it, too, and chooses not to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

Omg the camp sign-ups, getting the health forms in, wearing the right shoes and clothing and it changes every week all summer long. I don’t think DH ever did it once for 2 kids over maybe a decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

I think there is a lot to this, but note that if a woman married guy #2, she has to teach him how to be a good partner which is where a lot of the mental load is coming in. There are women who reload dishwashers, but there are women who are married to decent guys but who need to be asked to load the dishwasher. Different dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

Omg the camp sign-ups, getting the health forms in, wearing the right shoes and clothing and it changes every week all summer long. I don’t think DH ever did it once for 2 kids over maybe a decade.

I literally had a sticky note posted to the door that I would change on Sundays - which kind of shoe, bathing suit worn or packed, clean towel, sunscreen, sack lunch vs. lunchbox, drop off time and location.

[Anonymous]

Okay, but it sucks that its up to women to "facilitate the learning" of their loving but clueless husbands. It's like having another child to parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, but it sucks that its up to women to "facilitate the learning" of their loving but clueless husbands. It's like having another child to parent.

Right? Delegating and teaching and reminding is more mental load. It was worth it for us, but not stress free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

I think there is a lot to this, but note that if a woman married guy #2, she has to teach him how to be a good partner which is where a lot of the mental load is coming in. There are women who reload dishwashers, but there are women who are married to decent guys but who need to be asked to load the dishwasher. Different dynamic.

Yes of course, there are also bad women and good women and lots of grey areas between those two categories. I guess just trying to say that a lot of tension comes from giving advice a #2 needs to a #1 and it feeling really invalidating to their lived experience but giving #1 advice to a #2 can increase marital discord in a relationship worth saving where in fact perhaps that wife is even somewhat in the wrong.

It is really difficult to parse that out on an anonymous message board without more comprehensive knowledge of the relationships of the people posting.

And yes it is unfair that it is on today's generation of women to try to ensure their husbands don't behave in a way that passes this on to their sons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If this isn’t hard for you, you are either superdad or crummy at your job and at parenting.

Do you always think in such binary terms?

I'm no "superdad" but I am a good, if imperfect one.

I'm a top performer at work in a senior executive role.

My kids are older teens now and I've taught them to take on more responsibility for themselves. They make their own doctors and dental appointments now, for example and even go alone unless I am required to be there because they are minors. They know the birthdays of their family members. They also know when bills are due (contribute to their phone and car insurance expenses) and each kid prepares one family meal per week (DD1 has Tuesdays and DD2 does Thursdays).

I guided DD1 on college applications, but served more as a consultant and adviser -- she did it all herself.

DD2 initiated her driving behind the wheel tests.

If they need permission slips or early dismissals, they talk to me and we get it done.

Again, some of this is tedious, but it's not really HARD, let alone mentally taxing.

Well duh, because your kids are old enough that they could take up the slack. If they were in elementary school, your life would be very different. Why on earth would you weigh in on this when the women complaining aren’t talking about high school kids? Guess what? Parenting will be even easier for you when your kids are in their 40s, but it will still be challenging for parents of toddlers.

You can't possibly be claiming that the mental load piece of toddlerhood is harder than adolescence. Other parts of parenting toddlers are definitely harder, but ages 1 -4 is as easy as it gets from the mental load perspective, unless you choose to make work for yourself.

-- Mom of teens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fully respect the concept of the mental load - it is real.

What bothers me about most mental load conversations is it often sounds like working moms reinventing the wheel. We actually had a time where women stayed home and it was understood that what they were doing was important and time consuming. Then in the 70s-90s it was decided that women at home were doing nothing/"baking cookies and having teas." NOW working moms have "discovered" everyting involved with taking care of kids and household and have to tell everyone about it.

Mental load in the pre-70’s? You think parents parenting was the same back then?

You think men being involved in their child’s lives is a bad direction?

As a child of the 70-80s, my mom and her friends didn’t do half the things expected of moms today. My dad was really involved for the era but he had kids late in life (41) and desperately wanted us. But my mom was the mother from Arrest Development. She probably couldn’t name a single teacher or class I was in while I was in middle school or high school. She just expected As anything less would doom me to a life of prostitution (my parents literally told me that!). She wouldn’t have done fund raisers or drive me places. Play on the floor with me?! Go to Gymboree?! No way. Motherhood is now competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If this isn’t hard for you, you are either superdad or crummy at your job and at parenting.

Do you always think in such binary terms?

I'm no "superdad" but I am a good, if imperfect one.

I'm a top performer at work in a senior executive role.

My kids are older teens now and I've taught them to take on more responsibility for themselves. They make their own doctors and dental appointments now, for example and even go alone unless I am required to be there because they are minors. They know the birthdays of their family members. They also know when bills are due (contribute to their phone and car insurance expenses) and each kid prepares one family meal per week (DD1 has Tuesdays and DD2 does Thursdays).

I guided DD1 on college applications, but served more as a consultant and adviser -- she did it all herself.

DD2 initiated her driving behind the wheel tests.

If they need permission slips or early dismissals, they talk to me and we get it done.

Again, some of this is tedious, but it's not really HARD, let alone mentally taxing.

Well duh, because your kids are old enough that they could take up the slack. If they were in elementary school, your life would be very different. Why on earth would you weigh in on this when the women complaining aren’t talking about high school kids? Guess what? Parenting will be even easier for you when your kids are in their 40s, but it will still be challenging for parents of toddlers.

You can't possibly be claiming that the mental load piece of toddlerhood is harder than adolescence. Other parts of parenting toddlers are definitely harder, but ages 1 -4 is as easy as it gets from the mental load perspective, unless you choose to make work for yourself.

-- Mom of teens.

The parents of teens have lost their minds. You gave a kid a ride to soccer and some money to buy food and had the rest of the day to yourself. Calling parenting teens mental load is a joke.

[Anonymous]

This is BS. Look I married my wife she had a good job. She got pregnant on our first anniversary. Went on maternity leave on our 22 month of marriage. Took six months off. Max amount allowed and most unpaid. Went back to work a few weeks and begged me to be a SAHM she did not want to works. I said that means I have to double my income as we need both incomes. She said focus on career I will take care of everything with kids etc.

I still did the manly things, car repairs, mowing lawn, gutter cleaning, home repairs, changing sheets, paying bills. Doing taxes, managing investments, kids games on weekends. Helping get heavy grocery shopping stuff, getting ready birthday parties and holidays. I also worked 55 hours a week.
Sorry if she cooked, sewed, wrote Xmas cards, did all bday and Xmas shopping kids. It is her job

We had three kids and she never went back. Today as example I paid $2,300 to have her car repaired, moved boxes for Xmas for her and in exchange I worked 10 hours and she is making dinner and got a kid breakfast and in the bus.

How foolish would I look if I mailed out Xmas cards and cook thanksgiving dinner when my wife does not work and she drives a $50,000 when new SUV and lives in a 1.5 million dollar home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If this isn’t hard for you, you are either superdad or crummy at your job and at parenting.

Do you always think in such binary terms?

I'm no "superdad" but I am a good, if imperfect one.

I'm a top performer at work in a senior executive role.

My kids are older teens now and I've taught them to take on more responsibility for themselves. They make their own doctors and dental appointments now, for example and even go alone unless I am required to be there because they are minors. They know the birthdays of their family members. They also know when bills are due (contribute to their phone and car insurance expenses) and each kid prepares one family meal per week (DD1 has Tuesdays and DD2 does Thursdays).

I guided DD1 on college applications, but served more as a consultant and adviser -- she did it all herself.

DD2 initiated her driving behind the wheel tests.

If they need permission slips or early dismissals, they talk to me and we get it done.

Again, some of this is tedious, but it's not really HARD, let alone mentally taxing.

Well duh, because your kids are old enough that they could take up the slack. If they were in elementary school, your life would be very different. Why on earth would you weigh in on this when the women complaining aren’t talking about high school kids? Guess what? Parenting will be even easier for you when your kids are in their 40s, but it will still be challenging for parents of toddlers.

You can't possibly be claiming that the mental load piece of toddlerhood is harder than adolescence. Other parts of parenting toddlers are definitely harder, but ages 1 -4 is as easy as it gets from the mental load perspective, unless you choose to make work for yourself.

-- Mom of teens.

The parents of teens have lost their minds. You gave a kid a ride to soccer and some money to buy food and had the rest of the day to yourself. Calling parenting teens mental load is a joke.

If only. It's a different type of mental load with higher stakes and less in your control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm hearing this term so much on this board recently. There's a thread about how women are unhappy in their marriages because of the unequal distribution of the "mental load" with their husbands. Another thread in the Family section describes how stressful the holidays are because of the "mental load." And on and on. I've never heard this term until a few months back on this site. Is this just a new buzzword?

It's OK that you don't have a master's degree or higher.

I’m a mother and I think the endless perseveration on “mental load” is overblown. I trust my Ivy League Master’s degree qualifies me to have an opinion in some internet rando’s eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, but it sucks that its up to women to "facilitate the learning" of their loving but clueless husbands. It's like having another child to parent.

This is the type of reminding and facilitating I do for my teen. It’s annoying and I do it so they learn to take care of themselves. Doing it for a spouse would piss me off beyond belief. I can see why people get divorced. Living with learned helplessness is a nightmare.