What is with DCUM women and "mental loads?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If this isn’t hard for you, you are either superdad or crummy at your job and at parenting.

Do you always think in such binary terms?

I'm no "superdad" but I am a good, if imperfect one.

I'm a top performer at work in a senior executive role.

My kids are older teens now and I've taught them to take on more responsibility for themselves. They make their own doctors and dental appointments now, for example and even go alone unless I am required to be there because they are minors. They know the birthdays of their family members. They also know when bills are due (contribute to their phone and car insurance expenses) and each kid prepares one family meal per week (DD1 has Tuesdays and DD2 does Thursdays).

I guided DD1 on college applications, but served more as a consultant and adviser -- she did it all herself.

DD2 initiated her driving behind the wheel tests.

If they need permission slips or early dismissals, they talk to me and we get it done.

Again, some of this is tedious, but it's not really HARD, let alone mentally taxing.

Well duh, because your kids are old enough that they could take up the slack. If they were in elementary school, your life would be very different. Why on earth would you weigh in on this when the women complaining aren’t talking about high school kids? Guess what? Parenting will be even easier for you when your kids are in their 40s, but it will still be challenging for parents of toddlers.

You can't possibly be claiming that the mental load piece of toddlerhood is harder than adolescence. Other parts of parenting toddlers are definitely harder, but ages 1 -4 is as easy as it gets from the mental load perspective, unless you choose to make work for yourself.

-- Mom of teens.

The parents of teens have lost their minds. You gave a kid a ride to soccer and some money to buy food and had the rest of the day to yourself. Calling parenting teens mental load is a joke.

If only. It's a different type of mental load with higher stakes and less in your control.

Sorry, I have two teens. Delegate. Don’t be that parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Petula Dvorak wrote a tribute to a woman who died recently, and one of the things she/the widower celebrate is how she took care of everything.

This guy was 40 when he got married, so he had handled all his stuff on his own for decades. But as soon as he gets married, he dumps it on his wife.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/12/13/blind-government-lawyer-disabilities-rights/?%20va._2

Bad case for your argument. She was blind. He did all the cooking, all the driving, etc. They were a team. We could all learn from that.

He shopped and cooked and called it "helping." The piece says "he drove her everywhere," but someone commented that they used to see her at their Metro stop, so no, he didn't. Also, pretty weird to be impressed that the person who can see does the driving. The mental load is about what gets foisted on one partner when the other one could do it, too, and chooses not to.

Did he dump things on his wife or did they share the tasks, each doing the tasks they were best suited for? You are pretty nuts to want to project your dissatisfaction on this couple who, from the account you and I read in the paper, appeared to have worked out a way to share their lives in a way that worked for them. You should learn from them rather than trying to tear down what they built.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If this isn’t hard for you, you are either superdad or crummy at your job and at parenting.

That’s not right or fair. Sometimes people things “extra hard” - this dad probably doesn’t. Maybe ask him for advice instead of insulting him?

Typo! I meant “people make things”…

I suggested he could be super dad! I didn’t insult him.

But I’ll bite. What’s your meal plan method (I’m assuming you have at least one picky eater; if not, give me suggestions for the too). How do you keep track of addresses for your Christmas cards? Do you do a professional shoot for your Christmas card photos or just take the photos yourself? How do you coordinate Christmas card clothing? How do you keep track of birthdays for extended families? How do you decide what to get them? Do you go through the school calendar at the beginning of the year and sync that to your calendar, or do you do it monthly? Do you keep materials on hand for last minute school projects or do you make a last-minute target run? How did you choose your kids’ dentist? Their pediatrician? How would you choose a therapist for them? Woukd you put them on a king waiting list for one that takes your insurance or pay out of pocket? How did you choose which extracurriculars your kid does? Do you expose them to lots or just sign them up for what they ask for? When do you go through and make sure your kids have the clothing size they need? Do you just deal with that as it comes up or do it regularly every season? What potty training method did you use, or did you let daycare take care of that? What do you do for childcare and how did you settle on that? How do you deal with behavioral issues and do you scan your kids for symptoms mental issues like ADHD? What do you look for? What is your plan for elder care when the time comes? What is your screen time policy and how did you settle on that? Do your kids get regular exercise and time outside?

If im complicating any of this, by all means, let me know.

Did you know you don’t actually HAVE to send Christmas cards and they are totally optional?

There. Now two things on your list are off your plate. You’re welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

Then drop what is important to him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is BS. Look I married my wife she had a good job. She got pregnant on our first anniversary. Went on maternity leave on our 22 month of marriage. Took six months off. Max amount allowed and most unpaid. Went back to work a few weeks and begged me to be a SAHM she did not want to works. I said that means I have to double my income as we need both incomes. She said focus on career I will take care of everything with kids etc.

I still did the manly things, car repairs, mowing lawn, gutter cleaning, home repairs, changing sheets, paying bills. Doing taxes, managing investments, kids games on weekends. Helping get heavy grocery shopping stuff, getting ready birthday parties and holidays. I also worked 55 hours a week.
Sorry if she cooked, sewed, wrote Xmas cards, did all bday and Xmas shopping kids. It is her job

We had three kids and she never went back. Today as example I paid $2,300 to have her car repaired, moved boxes for Xmas for her and in exchange I worked 10 hours and she is making dinner and got a kid breakfast and in the bus.

How foolish would I look if I mailed out Xmas cards and cook thanksgiving dinner when my wife does not work and she drives a $50,000 when new SUV and lives in a 1.5 million dollar home.

I make $300k a year and still my DH doesn’t do anywhere near half the household management. This term is about me, not you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Yup. My DH does pick up/drop off twice a week but I get DC ready 5 days a week. I tried to delegate this to DH for almost a year, but it never got better and it was chaotic for DC. So now I will delegate discrete tasks on the days he’s around, like making breakfast or making sure DC brushes teeth. But I get up every day and make sure lunch is made, breakfast eaten, that DC goes to the bathroom, that clothes are weather and uniform appropriate, that bag is packed, that any special items are not forgotten. I keep an eye on the clock and make sure they are out the door. Etc. I’d LOVE to drop the rope on stuff like this. I did for a time. But DC differed and our house felt chaotic and conflicted.

People tell moms “don’t take on so much, delegate” but it’s not like we have the option of hiring someone qualified to do this stuff if our DH can’t or won’t (unless you have the money, in which case congrats, really). I do what I do because I’ve learned my life, and my DC’s life, suffer if I don’t. I don’t want to suffer. I know how to make things run. I’d like more free time and less weight on my shoulders. But I’d settle for someone acknowledging that what I’m doing is not only work, but work my DH has proven is too much for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

You have let this play out like this for how long? Are the girls pissed at you? I would be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

You have let this play out like this for how long? Are the girls pissed at you? I would be.

No, once it starts I nip it in the bud. But definitely happens after every break, most weeks at the beginning on the week, and randomly. Like they’ll do great for a week or two, and then one day they forget it all.

It also doesn’t help that none of the other staff enforce. Today when discussing it with a coworker, she replied “just let the guys go out anyway and do the cleaning yourself. It’s easier and they need to get their energy out”. No, that’s just perpetuating the problem.

Girls have definitely expressed their frustration and I always agree with them. I’ll then have a talk with the class on why it’s wrong to shift the burden onto others. And I *always* tell the girls, when I see them cleaning up after the boys, that they aren’t expected to. Or I’ll allow them to go out since they did what was asked.

Sometimes it’s super frustrating watching girls enable the behavior. There’s a new, very pretty girl who is head over heels with the popular boy so she does EVERYTHING for him and just laps up the attention he gives her (which is usually crap like stealing her backpack or her food). I just want to yell “ITS NOT GONNA BE SO CUTE IN 20 YEARS!!!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

Me! Full time out of the house job! all the above plus sports practice, piano, my own workout, aging parent care! No mental load here. It's called life people. Get over yourself.

But yes that is the mental load you’re just refusing to call it that. “Life” includes both mental labor and physical labor. If you’re doing it all you are in fact carrying the mental load.

My point was - so what? It's really not that hard.

[Anonymous]

I do the mental part - the list making and planning and organizing and calendar keeping. He carries a lot of it out by going to the store or washing the dishes or picking up forms or items I've ordered. Time wise things probably even out. But yes, that's a mental load. He does the grunt work and doesn't make as many decisions and balls in the air.

I am sometimes exhausted by the decision making. Like if you have a managerial type job, don't you ever wish you could just answer the phones and file what someone else hands you instead, so you can just give your brain a break?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

+ 1

The idea that getting your husband to make dinner is an enormous feat, and deserving of credit, but raising kids who can do it is nothing is bizarre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

You have let this play out like this for how long? Are the girls pissed at you? I would be.

No, once it starts I nip it in the bud. But definitely happens after every break, most weeks at the beginning on the week, and randomly. Like they’ll do great for a week or two, and then one day they forget it all.

It also doesn’t help that none of the other staff enforce. Today when discussing it with a coworker, she replied “just let the guys go out anyway and do the cleaning yourself. It’s easier and they need to get their energy out”. No, that’s just perpetuating the problem.

Girls have definitely expressed their frustration and I always agree with them. I’ll then have a talk with the class on why it’s wrong to shift the burden onto others. And I *always* tell the girls, when I see them cleaning up after the boys, that they aren’t expected to. Or I’ll allow them to go out since they did what was asked.

Sometimes it’s super frustrating watching girls enable the behavior. There’s a new, very pretty girl who is head over heels with the popular boy so she does EVERYTHING for him and just laps up the attention he gives her (which is usually crap like stealing her backpack or her food). I just want to yell “ITS NOT GONNA BE SO CUTE IN 20 YEARS!!!”

But why allow the girls to clean up after the boys? Why let the boys shift the burden in the first place?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because if I don’t do it, then DH want to do it either, and the children will suffer the consequences.