Sport Fair Winter Classic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The team list is in the back of the shirt. The only one I notice missing from last year is the St James. At least one new team.

https://form.jotform.com/243247225046149

It looks like the same big teams and some of the small teams have been switched with some other teams. This is a really small meet with clubs limited to 80 entrants total (Marlins 120 entrants as host).

NCI had 8,727 entries last year, Winter Classic had 7,806. One random PVS Nov open (the only one I checked) had 4,193 entries. Maybe the bar for “really small” is less than 8,000 entries, not my area of expertise.

There’s a difference between entrants (the total number of swimmers who are entered in the meet) and the number of entries (the total number of swimmers entered in each event, so each swimmer could conceivably count 7x since they are allowed to enter 7 events).

5,156 for NCI, 4,007 for Winter Classic, 1,618 for November open. So maybe the bar is 5,000 entrants.

I don’t know what kind of special math you are doing but there were not 4,000 individual swimmers at Winter Classic last year, there was just short of 900.

I’m not going to do the math for the entire NCI meet, but NCAP alone had 550 swimmers participate in NCI and Machine had 215. So those 2 teams alone (and there were another 28 teams at NCI) had about the same number of swimmers at NCI as there were at the entire Winter Classic meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:winter classic and NCI's are just fundamentally different styles of meets. NCI has qualifying times- if you have a qualifying time, and your team is going- you can attend. You only swim the qualifying time events (plus maybe bonus events).
Winter Classic is a team competition scored meet. Each team is only allowed to bring 80 swimmers. Because of this, I would imagine that virtually every swimmer swims 7 events (I know for our team, a condition of being allowed to swim in Winter Classic is that you agree to swim 7 events.) The team gets to select which swimmers get to attend winter classic. B/c of the scoring, I think it has more of a team feel and a fundamentally different vibe. I tend to see more cheering at winter classic than in general at PVS meets.
And to the first poster who asserted their team was told they could bring more swimmers- I seriously question that. The 80 swimmer limit is in the meet announcement. The meet is scored, which means that allowing some teams to bring more swimmers would make the scoring unfair. I know our team went out with a first round of invitations to swim in winter classic last week, then waited to fill all the spots both until some of the first round kids said if they could come or not, and to see the results of swims at this past weekend's meet. They sent out second round invitations last night. I guess that could look to someone like the team was allowed to bring more swimmers- but really they just hadn't filled all the spots yet- the roster is still 80.

So yes, the teams are limited to 80 swimmers. Potomac Marlins gets 120 swimmers. So, in theory, with 40 extra bodies they should score much higher than other teams but they never do.

When other teams do not use all their bodies or back out they do divide the numbers and give out extra slots to the confirmed teams. So if you look at the numbers from last year so teams were bigger.

https://swimstandards.com/meets/sport-fair-winter-classic-2023

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:winter classic and NCI's are just fundamentally different styles of meets. NCI has qualifying times- if you have a qualifying time, and your team is going- you can attend. You only swim the qualifying time events (plus maybe bonus events).
Winter Classic is a team competition scored meet. Each team is only allowed to bring 80 swimmers. Because of this, I would imagine that virtually every swimmer swims 7 events (I know for our team, a condition of being allowed to swim in Winter Classic is that you agree to swim 7 events.) The team gets to select which swimmers get to attend winter classic. B/c of the scoring, I think it has more of a team feel and a fundamentally different vibe. I tend to see more cheering at winter classic than in general at PVS meets.
And to the first poster who asserted their team was told they could bring more swimmers- I seriously question that. The 80 swimmer limit is in the meet announcement. The meet is scored, which means that allowing some teams to bring more swimmers would make the scoring unfair. I know our team went out with a first round of invitations to swim in winter classic last week, then waited to fill all the spots both until some of the first round kids said if they could come or not, and to see the results of swims at this past weekend's meet. They sent out second round invitations last night. I guess that could look to someone like the team was allowed to bring more swimmers- but really they just hadn't filled all the spots yet- the roster is still 80.

So yes, the teams are limited to 80 swimmers. Potomac Marlins gets 120 swimmers. So, in theory, with 40 extra bodies they should score much higher than other teams but they never do.

When other teams do not use all their bodies or back out they do divide the numbers and give out extra slots to the confirmed teams. So if you look at the numbers from last year so teams were bigger.

https://swimstandards.com/meets/sport-fair-winter-classic-2023

Also note, that York won it last year with exactly 80 participants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The team list is in the back of the shirt. The only one I notice missing from last year is the St James. At least one new team.

https://form.jotform.com/243247225046149

It looks like the same big teams and some of the small teams have been switched with some other teams. This is a really small meet with clubs limited to 80 entrants total (Marlins 120 entrants as host).

NCI had 8,727 entries last year, Winter Classic had 7,806. One random PVS Nov open (the only one I checked) had 4,193 entries. Maybe the bar for “really small” is less than 8,000 entries, not my area of expertise.

There’s a difference between entrants (the total number of swimmers who are entered in the meet) and the number of entries (the total number of swimmers entered in each event, so each swimmer could conceivably count 7x since they are allowed to enter 7 events).

5,156 for NCI, 4,007 for Winter Classic, 1,618 for November open. So maybe the bar is 5,000 entrants.

I don’t know what kind of special math you are doing but there were not 4,000 individual swimmers at Winter Classic last year, there was just short of 900.

Maybe you’ve never looked at the timeline distributed before every single meet. Each session has a “swimmer count for warmups” and “total entries”. NCI and winter classic have 17 sessions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The team list is in the back of the shirt. The only one I notice missing from last year is the St James. At least one new team.

https://form.jotform.com/243247225046149

It looks like the same big teams and some of the small teams have been switched with some other teams. This is a really small meet with clubs limited to 80 entrants total (Marlins 120 entrants as host).

NCI had 8,727 entries last year, Winter Classic had 7,806. One random PVS Nov open (the only one I checked) had 4,193 entries. Maybe the bar for “really small” is less than 8,000 entries, not my area of expertise.

There’s a difference between entrants (the total number of swimmers who are entered in the meet) and the number of entries (the total number of swimmers entered in each event, so each swimmer could conceivably count 7x since they are allowed to enter 7 events).

5,156 for NCI, 4,007 for Winter Classic, 1,618 for November open. So maybe the bar is 5,000 entrants.

I don’t know what kind of special math you are doing but there were not 4,000 individual swimmers at Winter Classic last year, there was just short of 900.

Maybe you’ve never looked at the timeline distributed before every single meet. Each session has a “swimmer count for warmups” and “total entries”. NCI and winter classic have 17 sessions.

Oh sweetie, looking at the count for warms ups or entries for each session and then adding them all together isn’t going to give you the correct number of swimmers because most swimmers are swimming in multiple sessions so you are counting them multiple times. Just go to swimcloud or swim standards for the actual number of swimmers participating in the meet. There absolutely were not 4000 swimmers at Winter Classic last year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

It’s just a different thing. There is one or more posters who are very invested in tearing down winter classic. I have no idea why unless there kid wasn’t selected??? Of course it’s ’smaller’ than nci, that it the whole point. It’s a limited number of swimmers. I don’t feel like taking the time to do this but I suspect that any kid who finals at winter classic has nci cuts. Similarly the poster who said teams send their fastest swimmers to nci over winter classic, that’s just false. None of the teams who participate in winter classic participate in nci. The Turkey clause equivalent is the mako invitational not winter classic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

It is ridiculously hard to make finals at NCI- it is not that difficult to make finals at winter classic. I remember it was the first meet where my kid earned a second swim when he was 12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

No, not at all. I’m going to pull a random event, boys 11-12 200 free. The winner at NCI was 1:54.36, and the winner at Winter Classic was 1:56.19. The last finals qualifier at NCI had a prelims time of 2:06.53 and the last finals qualifier at Winter Classic had a prelim time of 2:17.67.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

It is ridiculously hard to make finals at NCI- it is not that difficult to make finals at winter classic. I remember it was the first meet where my kid earned a second swim when he was 12.

No one is suggesting the finals are comparable; they’re not. What a few of us are factually pointing out is that swimming at winter classic isn’t the consolation prize for those that don’t make NCI. Lots of winter classic kids have NCI cuts, but that’s irrelevant, because their team doesn’t attend the meet so they can’t swim in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

No, not at all. I’m going to pull a random event, boys 11-12 200 free. The winner at NCI was 1:54.36, and the winner at Winter Classic was 1:56.19. The last finals qualifier at NCI had a prelims time of 2:06.53 and the last finals qualifier at Winter Classic had a prelim time of 2:17.67.

That is what I I figured. Not hating on Winter classic. But it is also disingenuous to say the meets are comparable. NCI is much faster. Yes the kids from the winter classic can make NCI cuts but less likely to make finals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

No, not at all. I’m going to pull a random event, boys 11-12 200 free. The winner at NCI was 1:54.36, and the winner at Winter Classic was 1:56.19. The last finals qualifier at NCI had a prelims time of 2:06.53 and the last finals qualifier at Winter Classic had a prelim time of 2:17.67.

That is what I I figured. Not hating on Winter classic. But it is also disingenuous to say the meets are comparable. NCI is much faster. Yes the kids from the winter classic can make NCI cuts but less likely to make finals.

Oh my goodness. No one is saying that! A PP said that it’s a good thing WC exists for the not fast kids. And some of us are simply saying that swimming WC over NCI doesn’t mean that individual swimmer isn’t fast. Many of them would qualify for NCI. But I’m glad you spent some time doing a forensic analysis of old meet data to disprove a point no one made. The level of smugness on this forum is unbearable. It’s about your kid, not about you. You’re not the fast one.