Sport Fair Winter Classic

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

Also NP but if every good kid needs to switch teams you don’t have a good team, however a girls Olympic Trials qualifier switching is a totally different situation. She needs higher level training partners which she will get with the NCAP boys (which are way better than Mako boys)

I don’t disagree. But I think the point getting lost is that she already achieved an incredible outcome before the switch.

People get that but are pointing out that her cohort was older kids and as those kids age out she’s left with kids her own age that not only cannot push her, but probably can’t even keep up with the basic level of training she needs.

And if you look at her times there are quite a few NCAP females that are her age that are definitely a cohort. Not to mention the ones that might be older or male.

https://swimstandards.com/rankings?page=1

She has a true training group.

It’s not just about the training cohort. The top groups from the various NCAP sites go to much faster meets outside of PVS. They had a meet in Charlottesville instead of the October open then the NOVA Sr Classic in Richmond. Going to bigger and faster meets also helps prepare you.

Anybody that’s been to Olympic Trials is qualified for the biggest USA swimming meets. Don’t delude yourself that those other meets mean anything.

But they do. They are better pools with faster kids. It is not just training but practicing racing and NCAP meets are faster. Where other kids making Olympic qualifying cuts are also competing. Instead of attending an Open where no one is close to your speen you are at a venue with multiple competition pools, cool down pools and fast kids that have come from many states. The meets you attend is part of the better competition.

Look up the fast kids nationwide and you see kids from all over but certain clubs tend to have more.

Makos doesn’t even do open meets. I understand what you’re saying and disagree respectfully.

They host meets that have even lighter competition than the Opens, and they do participate in Opens. Last fall that swimmer did a Makos meet, Oct Open, Swim and Rock, US Open and Winter Classic. This year it will be Oct Open, NOVA Senior Classic, US Open and NCI. I know it’s frustrating for clubs like Fish and Makos to lose amazing swimmers to the NCAP machine, but it’s crazy to say a truly elite swimmer can get the same competitive experience at Makos as they can at NCAP.

Sure, but it was competitive enough to achieve two Trials cuts… which is two more than most swimmers from any PVS club.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

Also NP but if every good kid needs to switch teams you don’t have a good team, however a girls Olympic Trials qualifier switching is a totally different situation. She needs higher level training partners which she will get with the NCAP boys (which are way better than Mako boys)

I don’t disagree. But I think the point getting lost is that she already achieved an incredible outcome before the switch.

People get that but are pointing out that her cohort was older kids and as those kids age out she’s left with kids her own age that not only cannot push her, but probably can’t even keep up with the basic level of training she needs.

And if you look at her times there are quite a few NCAP females that are her age that are definitely a cohort. Not to mention the ones that might be older or male.

https://swimstandards.com/rankings?page=1

She has a true training group.

It’s not just about the training cohort. The top groups from the various NCAP sites go to much faster meets outside of PVS. They had a meet in Charlottesville instead of the October open then the NOVA Sr Classic in Richmond. Going to bigger and faster meets also helps prepare you.

Anybody that’s been to Olympic Trials is qualified for the biggest USA swimming meets. Don’t delude yourself that those other meets mean anything.

But they do. They are better pools with faster kids. It is not just training but practicing racing and NCAP meets are faster. Where other kids making Olympic qualifying cuts are also competing. Instead of attending an Open where no one is close to your speen you are at a venue with multiple competition pools, cool down pools and fast kids that have come from many states. The meets you attend is part of the better competition.

Look up the fast kids nationwide and you see kids from all over but certain clubs tend to have more.

Makos doesn’t even do open meets. I understand what you’re saying and disagree respectfully.

They host meets that have even lighter competition than the Opens, and they do participate in Opens. Last fall that swimmer did a Makos meet, Oct Open, Swim and Rock, US Open and Winter Classic. This year it will be Oct Open, NOVA Senior Classic, US Open and NCI. I know it’s frustrating for clubs like Fish and Makos to lose amazing swimmers to the NCAP machine, but it’s crazy to say a truly elite swimmer can get the same competitive experience at Makos as they can at NCAP.

Sure, but it was competitive enough to achieve two Trials cuts… which is two more than most swimmers from any PVS club.

Ok, the swimmer chose to make a change and clearly had reasons for it. Probably some of the same reason outlined above that you are discounting. Why are you so bent out of shape about it?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

No, not at all. I’m going to pull a random event, boys 11-12 200 free. The winner at NCI was 1:54.36, and the winner at Winter Classic was 1:56.19. The last finals qualifier at NCI had a prelims time of 2:06.53 and the last finals qualifier at Winter Classic had a prelim time of 2:17.67.

That is what I I figured. Not hating on Winter classic. But it is also disingenuous to say the meets are comparable. NCI is much faster. Yes the kids from the winter classic can make NCI cuts but less likely to make finals.

Oh my goodness. No one is saying that! A PP said that it’s a good thing WC exists for the not fast kids. And some of us are simply saying that swimming WC over NCI doesn’t mean that individual swimmer isn’t fast. Many of them would qualify for NCI. But I’m glad you spent some time doing a forensic analysis of old meet data to disprove a point no one made. The level of smugness on this forum is unbearable. It’s about your kid, not about you. You’re not the fast one.

To be fair though, using the 200 free example, you can final at Winter Classic with a time that wouldn’t qualify to swim at NCI, let alone make finals.

No one is arguing that NCI is a much faster meet. No one is saying that all WC swimmers would make NCI. People are twisting words to make sure everyone knows NCI is a faster meet. Right on cue when the subject comes up. We get it. We got it before all this too.
I was reacting to one post that said WC exists for the not fast kids. And “to be fair though”, I pointed out that it’s not a backup meet for NCI, as the participating clubs are different at each meet and that there are several WC swimmers that do make NCI. That’s it, that’s all I was getting at. Let’s move on.

Clearly you’re really defensive about this, but there were posters saying that “most” Winter Classic swimmers would qualify for NCI, and I don’t think that’s true just by virtue of the fact that there aren’t time standards for most events at Winter Classic. I do understand that not every team is invited to NCI or RMSC Holiday Invitational, so you will have some fast swimmers at Winter Classic who will dominate that meet and could final at NCI, but there’s a pretty steep drop off from the 8th place finisher at NCI and the 8th place finisher at Winter Classic.

Which post said “most”? I must not see it.
Which post implied the NCI-qualifying swimmers at WC would final at NCI? I must not see those either.
I probably am defensive and I apologize. But this forum has several threads where people smugly rush to announce that NCI is faster than WC, even though no one is saying it’s not. Of course it is!
I’m just tired of parents that have superiority complexes because their kid is faster than other people’s and love to put down other people because of something they themselves aren’t even accomplishing.
Btw, I have a nationally-ranked swimmer in multiple events, so this isn’t sour grapes. They dont attend either meet.

I have a nationally ranked swimmer as well and they won't be attending the Winter Classic, NCI, Winter Juniors, or the US Open, even though they have cuts for all of those meets. Instead, they will be attending the IMX meet our club is hosting at the end of December!

Do they have a prelim/finals meet in December? That is important in club swimming

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

Are the finalist in the two meets comparable? So the slowest finalist at Sport Fair would also make finals at NCI?

No, not at all. I’m going to pull a random event, boys 11-12 200 free. The winner at NCI was 1:54.36, and the winner at Winter Classic was 1:56.19. The last finals qualifier at NCI had a prelims time of 2:06.53 and the last finals qualifier at Winter Classic had a prelim time of 2:17.67.

That is what I I figured. Not hating on Winter classic. But it is also disingenuous to say the meets are comparable. NCI is much faster. Yes the kids from the winter classic can make NCI cuts but less likely to make finals.

Oh my goodness. No one is saying that! A PP said that it’s a good thing WC exists for the not fast kids. And some of us are simply saying that swimming WC over NCI doesn’t mean that individual swimmer isn’t fast. Many of them would qualify for NCI. But I’m glad you spent some time doing a forensic analysis of old meet data to disprove a point no one made. The level of smugness on this forum is unbearable. It’s about your kid, not about you. You’re not the fast one.

To be fair though, using the 200 free example, you can final at Winter Classic with a time that wouldn’t qualify to swim at NCI, let alone make finals.

No one is arguing that NCI is a much faster meet. No one is saying that all WC swimmers would make NCI. People are twisting words to make sure everyone knows NCI is a faster meet. Right on cue when the subject comes up. We get it. We got it before all this too.
I was reacting to one post that said WC exists for the not fast kids. And “to be fair though”, I pointed out that it’s not a backup meet for NCI, as the participating clubs are different at each meet and that there are several WC swimmers that do make NCI. That’s it, that’s all I was getting at. Let’s move on.

Clearly you’re really defensive about this, but there were posters saying that “most” Winter Classic swimmers would qualify for NCI, and I don’t think that’s true just by virtue of the fact that there aren’t time standards for most events at Winter Classic. I do understand that not every team is invited to NCI or RMSC Holiday Invitational, so you will have some fast swimmers at Winter Classic who will dominate that meet and could final at NCI, but there’s a pretty steep drop off from the 8th place finisher at NCI and the 8th place finisher at Winter Classic.

Which post said “most”? I must not see it.
Which post implied the NCI-qualifying swimmers at WC would final at NCI? I must not see those either.
I probably am defensive and I apologize. But this forum has several threads where people smugly rush to announce that NCI is faster than WC, even though no one is saying it’s not. Of course it is!
I’m just tired of parents that have superiority complexes because their kid is faster than other people’s and love to put down other people because of something they themselves aren’t even accomplishing.
Btw, I have a nationally-ranked swimmer in multiple events, so this isn’t sour grapes. They dont attend either meet.

I have a nationally ranked swimmer as well and they won't be attending the Winter Classic, NCI, Winter Juniors, or the US Open, even though they have cuts for all of those meets. Instead, they will be attending the IMX meet our club is hosting at the end of December!

Do they have a prelim/finals meet in December? That is important in club swimming

IMX is a longstanding inside joke on the board. Meant to make you smile.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

Also NP but if every good kid needs to switch teams you don’t have a good team, however a girls Olympic Trials qualifier switching is a totally different situation. She needs higher level training partners which she will get with the NCAP boys (which are way better than Mako boys)

I don’t disagree. But I think the point getting lost is that she already achieved an incredible outcome before the switch.

People get that but are pointing out that her cohort was older kids and as those kids age out she’s left with kids her own age that not only cannot push her, but probably can’t even keep up with the basic level of training she needs.

And if you look at her times there are quite a few NCAP females that are her age that are definitely a cohort. Not to mention the ones that might be older or male.

https://swimstandards.com/rankings?page=1

She has a true training group.

It’s not just about the training cohort. The top groups from the various NCAP sites go to much faster meets outside of PVS. They had a meet in Charlottesville instead of the October open then the NOVA Sr Classic in Richmond. Going to bigger and faster meets also helps prepare you.

Anybody that’s been to Olympic Trials is qualified for the biggest USA swimming meets. Don’t delude yourself that those other meets mean anything.

But they do. They are better pools with faster kids. It is not just training but practicing racing and NCAP meets are faster. Where other kids making Olympic qualifying cuts are also competing. Instead of attending an Open where no one is close to your speen you are at a venue with multiple competition pools, cool down pools and fast kids that have come from many states. The meets you attend is part of the better competition.

Look up the fast kids nationwide and you see kids from all over but certain clubs tend to have more.

Makos doesn’t even do open meets. I understand what you’re saying and disagree respectfully.

They host meets that have even lighter competition than the Opens, and they do participate in Opens. Last fall that swimmer did a Makos meet, Oct Open, Swim and Rock, US Open and Winter Classic. This year it will be Oct Open, NOVA Senior Classic, US Open and NCI. I know it’s frustrating for clubs like Fish and Makos to lose amazing swimmers to the NCAP machine, but it’s crazy to say a truly elite swimmer can get the same competitive experience at Makos as they can at NCAP.

Sure, but it was competitive enough to achieve two Trials cuts… which is two more than most swimmers from any PVS club.

Ok, the swimmer chose to make a change and clearly had reasons for it. Probably some of the same reason outlined above that you are discounting. Why are you so bent out of shape about it?

+1. Why are you so bent? Personalizing it?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

I just looked at the 9-10 girls 50 back and there is a York girl in 1st, NCAP 2nd, a York girl in 3rd who will be 11 in a month, and then a bunch of RMSC swimmers. I’m not seeing the domination you’re describing by York. The do have a great current 10 year old girl, but she is 1 month from being middle of the road as an 11-12. You would expect a 10 month 11 year old swimmer to be at the top of the 9-10 group.

I think the three York swimmers (9-10 girls) would win have a chance to win all NCI events, so I was agreeing that other teams have swimmers who easily could compete, and even win, events at NCI.

Where are you seeing what kids are swimming at this years WC? Not being snarky— curious where this is since my kid is swimming.

psych sheet

https://www.potomacmarlins.com/potomacmarlins/__eventform__/1352338_d2dc158e-ac64-4930-bb14-b99b8caa767e.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

I just looked at the 9-10 girls 50 back and there is a York girl in 1st, NCAP 2nd, a York girl in 3rd who will be 11 in a month, and then a bunch of RMSC swimmers. I’m not seeing the domination you’re describing by York. The do have a great current 10 year old girl, but she is 1 month from being middle of the road as an 11-12. You would expect a 10 month 11 year old swimmer to be at the top of the 9-10 group.

I think the three York swimmers (9-10 girls) would win have a chance to win all NCI events, so I was agreeing that other teams have swimmers who easily could compete, and even win, events at NCI.

Where are you seeing what kids are swimming at this years WC? Not being snarky— curious where this is since my kid is swimming.

psych sheet

https://www.potomacmarlins.com/potomacmarlins/__eventform__/1352338_d2dc158e-ac64-4930-bb14-b99b8caa767e.pdf

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

Also NP but if every good kid needs to switch teams you don’t have a good team, however a girls Olympic Trials qualifier switching is a totally different situation. She needs higher level training partners which she will get with the NCAP boys (which are way better than Mako boys)

I don’t disagree. But I think the point getting lost is that she already achieved an incredible outcome before the switch.

People get that but are pointing out that her cohort was older kids and as those kids age out she’s left with kids her own age that not only cannot push her, but probably can’t even keep up with the basic level of training she needs.

And if you look at her times there are quite a few NCAP females that are her age that are definitely a cohort. Not to mention the ones that might be older or male.

https://swimstandards.com/rankings?page=1

She has a true training group.

It’s not just about the training cohort. The top groups from the various NCAP sites go to much faster meets outside of PVS. They had a meet in Charlottesville instead of the October open then the NOVA Sr Classic in Richmond. Going to bigger and faster meets also helps prepare you.

Anybody that’s been to Olympic Trials is qualified for the biggest USA swimming meets. Don’t delude yourself that those other meets mean anything.

But they do. They are better pools with faster kids. It is not just training but practicing racing and NCAP meets are faster. Where other kids making Olympic qualifying cuts are also competing. Instead of attending an Open where no one is close to your speen you are at a venue with multiple competition pools, cool down pools and fast kids that have come from many states. The meets you attend is part of the better competition.

Look up the fast kids nationwide and you see kids from all over but certain clubs tend to have more.

Makos doesn’t even do open meets. I understand what you’re saying and disagree respectfully.

They host meets that have even lighter competition than the Opens, and they do participate in Opens. Last fall that swimmer did a Makos meet, Oct Open, Swim and Rock, US Open and Winter Classic. This year it will be Oct Open, NOVA Senior Classic, US Open and NCI. I know it’s frustrating for clubs like Fish and Makos to lose amazing swimmers to the NCAP machine, but it’s crazy to say a truly elite swimmer can get the same competitive experience at Makos as they can at NCAP.

No female at NCAP burke was an Olympic trial qualifier this olympics, and not sure when there was one last.

But there will be soon…probably several. Look it up.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

Also NP but if every good kid needs to switch teams you don’t have a good team, however a girls Olympic Trials qualifier switching is a totally different situation. She needs higher level training partners which she will get with the NCAP boys (which are way better than Mako boys)

I don’t disagree. But I think the point getting lost is that she already achieved an incredible outcome before the switch.

People get that but are pointing out that her cohort was older kids and as those kids age out she’s left with kids her own age that not only cannot push her, but probably can’t even keep up with the basic level of training she needs.

And if you look at her times there are quite a few NCAP females that are her age that are definitely a cohort. Not to mention the ones that might be older or male.

https://swimstandards.com/rankings?page=1

She has a true training group.

It’s not just about the training cohort. The top groups from the various NCAP sites go to much faster meets outside of PVS. They had a meet in Charlottesville instead of the October open then the NOVA Sr Classic in Richmond. Going to bigger and faster meets also helps prepare you.

Anybody that’s been to Olympic Trials is qualified for the biggest USA swimming meets. Don’t delude yourself that those other meets mean anything.

But they do. They are better pools with faster kids. It is not just training but practicing racing and NCAP meets are faster. Where other kids making Olympic qualifying cuts are also competing. Instead of attending an Open where no one is close to your speen you are at a venue with multiple competition pools, cool down pools and fast kids that have come from many states. The meets you attend is part of the better competition.

Look up the fast kids nationwide and you see kids from all over but certain clubs tend to have more.

Makos doesn’t even do open meets. I understand what you’re saying and disagree respectfully.

They host meets that have even lighter competition than the Opens, and they do participate in Opens. Last fall that swimmer did a Makos meet, Oct Open, Swim and Rock, US Open and Winter Classic. This year it will be Oct Open, NOVA Senior Classic, US Open and NCI. I know it’s frustrating for clubs like Fish and Makos to lose amazing swimmers to the NCAP machine, but it’s crazy to say a truly elite swimmer can get the same competitive experience at Makos as they can at NCAP.

No female at NCAP burke was an Olympic trial qualifier this olympics, and not sure when there was one last.

But there will be soon…probably several. Look it up.

(And not just transfers. There are several home-grown female swimmers who should qualify for LA.)

[Anonymous]

Unless you are the parent of the swimmer and posting with the assent of the swimmer, please STOP discussing (gossiping about) specific minors, using personally-identifiable information, in this forum, particularly since 99.9% of it is conjecture. JUST STOP.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

This is true, many of them do. Many wish they could stay with York, but pool limitations means that a talented kid is forced to swim mornings at age 13. The higher performance groups are at 4:30 or 5:00 am. It's unfortunate. Many parents and swimmers want to avoid mornings at such a young age, so switch to NCAP Marymount, where they can continue afternoons/evenings through age 14 at least.

This is a big problem for York. The top kids are forced into early mornings too soon because of pool space. A lot of talented kids leave, bc their parents (many of whom were high level swimmers too) know that early mornings for that many years is a likely path to burnout.

The whole thing is ironic bc a lot of families choose York bc the focus is on fun and the practice requirements are typically not intense for age groupers (3-4 workouts a week max, even for the most talented 12 and unders). But then their kids turn 13 and they are forced to become more intense by way of getting up super early for practice.

I wish they could fix this issue; many more kids would stay past age 12.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

This is true, many of them do. Many wish they could stay with York, but pool limitations means that a talented kid is forced to swim mornings at age 13. The higher performance groups are at 4:30 or 5:00 am. It's unfortunate. Many parents and swimmers want to avoid mornings at such a young age, so switch to NCAP Marymount, where they can continue afternoons/evenings through age 14 at least.

This is a big problem for York. The top kids are forced into early mornings too soon because of pool space. A lot of talented kids leave, bc their parents (many of whom were high level swimmers too) know that early mornings for that many years is a likely path to burnout.

The whole thing is ironic bc a lot of families choose York bc the focus is on fun and the practice requirements are typically not intense for age groupers (3-4 workouts a week max, even for the most talented 12 and unders). But then their kids turn 13 and they are forced to become more intense by way of getting up super early for practice.

I wish they could fix this issue; many more kids would stay past age 12.

Seems to me that lack of pool access in the afternoons is the issue and there is no fix. Am I wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

This is true, many of them do. Many wish they could stay with York, but pool limitations means that a talented kid is forced to swim mornings at age 13. The higher performance groups are at 4:30 or 5:00 am. It's unfortunate. Many parents and swimmers want to avoid mornings at such a young age, so switch to NCAP Marymount, where they can continue afternoons/evenings through age 14 at least.

This is a big problem for York. The top kids are forced into early mornings too soon because of pool space. A lot of talented kids leave, bc their parents (many of whom were high level swimmers too) know that early mornings for that many years is a likely path to burnout.

The whole thing is ironic bc a lot of families choose York bc the focus is on fun and the practice requirements are typically not intense for age groupers (3-4 workouts a week max, even for the most talented 12 and unders). But then their kids turn 13 and they are forced to become more intense by way of getting up super early for practice.

I wish they could fix this issue; many more kids would stay past age 12.

York isn’t the only team that does this.

There are MANY teams in this area that have 13 year olds going early in the morning, yet YORK is the only one that goes from relevant at 10&Under to pretty much non-existent at 15&Over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

This is true, many of them do. Many wish they could stay with York, but pool limitations means that a talented kid is forced to swim mornings at age 13. The higher performance groups are at 4:30 or 5:00 am. It's unfortunate. Many parents and swimmers want to avoid mornings at such a young age, so switch to NCAP Marymount, where they can continue afternoons/evenings through age 14 at least.

This is a big problem for York. The top kids are forced into early mornings too soon because of pool space. A lot of talented kids leave, bc their parents (many of whom were high level swimmers too) know that early mornings for that many years is a likely path to burnout.

The whole thing is ironic bc a lot of families choose York bc the focus is on fun and the practice requirements are typically not intense for age groupers (3-4 workouts a week max, even for the most talented 12 and unders). But then their kids turn 13 and they are forced to become more intense by way of getting up super early for practice.

I wish they could fix this issue; many more kids would stay past age 12.

York isn’t the only team that does this.

There are MANY teams in this area that have 13 year olds going early in the morning, yet YORK is the only one that goes from relevant at 10&Under to pretty much non-existent at 15&Over.

Is it the only option for those teams at 13? It’s not at NCAP. My DD swims at Marymount and we get a lot of good york kids bc we offer evenings through 14.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are hearing rumors some big clubs aren’t attending this year and were also just told we could bring more swimmers than originally planned. Which clubs are definitely attending? Who dropped out?

There are not many big clubs at this meet. The big clubs (RMSC, NCAP, Machine, etc) all attend NCI and Turkey Claus.

NCI pulls in a lot of teams from out of state and many qualifying cuts are faster than senior champs. It certainly takes a faster time to final. It’s a really fast meet.

NCI is just an incredibly fast meet. Thankfully Turkey Claus, sport Fair winter classic, etc exist for the not incredibly fast.

To be clear, there are plenty of swimmers at the Winter Classic that are fast enough to swim at the NCI. Their teams just don't participate so they cannot, even though they have the cuts. NCI is unquestionably a much faster meet, but it's inaccurate to say that the Winter Classic is for swimmers that are "not incredibly fast".

100%! Just looking at one event (50 back) in 9-10 girls, York, Makos, and OCCS all have 9-10 girls who are as fast as girls on NCAP and RMSC. York has the two fastest 9-10 girls in all of PVS by miles. (We swim at NCAP, but huge props to York. If we lived closer, I might change to York. They look like they are a true team.)

By the way YORK has literally always has good 10&Unders so where are their girls ranked in 13-14 and 15&Over categories right now?

If they aren’t high then sorry they aren’t a good team (unless you only want success at 10)

A lot of them move to NCAP.

This is true, many of them do. Many wish they could stay with York, but pool limitations means that a talented kid is forced to swim mornings at age 13. The higher performance groups are at 4:30 or 5:00 am. It's unfortunate. Many parents and swimmers want to avoid mornings at such a young age, so switch to NCAP Marymount, where they can continue afternoons/evenings through age 14 at least.

This is a big problem for York. The top kids are forced into early mornings too soon because of pool space. A lot of talented kids leave, bc their parents (many of whom were high level swimmers too) know that early mornings for that many years is a likely path to burnout.

The whole thing is ironic bc a lot of families choose York bc the focus is on fun and the practice requirements are typically not intense for age groupers (3-4 workouts a week max, even for the most talented 12 and unders). But then their kids turn 13 and they are forced to become more intense by way of getting up super early for practice.

I wish they could fix this issue; many more kids would stay past age 12.

York isn’t the only team that does this.

There are MANY teams in this area that have 13 year olds going early in the morning, yet YORK is the only one that goes from relevant at 10&Under to pretty much non-existent at 15&Over.

Is it the only option for those teams at 13? It’s not at NCAP. My DD swims at Marymount and we get a lot of good york kids bc we offer evenings through 14.

I think Marymount is the only NCAP site where the highest level 13 year olds aren’t doing at least 1 early morning practice.