Struggling getting 4 year old to cooperate

[Anonymous]

You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

[Anonymous]

What helped us the most is to give DD tons of attention for good behavior. "Great job getting dressed!" "Great job being flexible when you couldn't play with the toy you wanted!" "Great job listening to momma when she asked you to use your indoor voice". It made a much bigger difference than I thought it would for my very stubborn child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

Ideally, consequences would be immediate, but when the misbehavior happens at night, that may not be practical. If a consequence is delayed, then I’d give a reminder - “No, you can’t do X because, remember, last night you didn’t get in the bath when we told you”.

I know you hate giving up the cozy bedtime story, but it might be your most effective tool. Here are some other things you can try. I usually took them away according to my order of preference. For example, I’d take away treats/dessert readily, but books were one of the last things I’d take away.

Some consequences you might try:

time-outs (1 min/yr - so 4 minutes for a four year old) - good generally but might be counterproductive in this case because you’d be punishing her for delaying her bath by delaying her bath)

plain bath (no toys, bubbles, water dye, etc.)
earlier bedtime (if your schedule allows)
no treats
no TV
take away favorite toy (to play with - I wouldn’t take away comfort object)
no park (or playdate, special outing, etc.)
take away art/craft supplies
no puzzles
no games
keep taking away items/privileges

You’ll need to find out what matters to your child, and even then they may resist. With my strong-willed daughter I used to have to keep a list on the fridge of everything she lost, and sometimes it seemed pretty bleak, but she’d still tell me “It’s okay that you took away X, I can still do Y”. So then Y would be the next thing she’d lose.

Don’t forget to give her positive reinforcement when you can. We reached a turning point once when I realized she hadn’t lost treats yet and took her for one. I reminded her that I loved her and wanted her to be happy. I told her that I wished I could give her more treats and do more special things with her, but when she chose to misbehave I couldn’t, making me sad too.

Good luck and stay strong. This isn’t a quick fix, you have to be prepared for the long haul. But if you consistently show her that bad things happen when she disobeys, but good things can happen when she obeys, eventually she’ll recognize it’s in her best interest to cooperate. Remember, you aren’t doing this to her, she’s making the choice to accept a consequence rather than cooperate.

[Anonymous]

Try a sticker chart with incentives and the bath is something she needs to complete. You also likely need a very strict routine that you do not deviate from. She needs to get into a habit of doing the bath. Good luck!

I will agree with others that some kids are super stubborn so don't feel like a failure. It is more about your daughter's personality than it is your parenting skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

Ideally, consequences would be immediate, but when the misbehavior happens at night, that may not be practical. If a consequence is delayed, then I’d give a reminder - “No, you can’t do X because, remember, last night you didn’t get in the bath when we told you”.

I know you hate giving up the cozy bedtime story, but it might be your most effective tool. Here are some other things you can try. I usually took them away according to my order of preference. For example, I’d take away treats/dessert readily, but books were one of the last things I’d take away.

Some consequences you might try:

time-outs (1 min/yr - so 4 minutes for a four year old) - good generally but might be counterproductive in this case because you’d be punishing her for delaying her bath by delaying her bath)

plain bath (no toys, bubbles, water dye, etc.)
earlier bedtime (if your schedule allows)
no treats
no TV
take away favorite toy (to play with - I wouldn’t take away comfort object)
no park (or playdate, special outing, etc.)
take away art/craft supplies
no puzzles
no games
keep taking away items/privileges

You’ll need to find out what matters to your child, and even then they may resist. With my strong-willed daughter I used to have to keep a list on the fridge of everything she lost, and sometimes it seemed pretty bleak, but she’d still tell me “It’s okay that you took away X, I can still do Y”. So then Y would be the next thing she’d lose.

Don’t forget to give her positive reinforcement when you can. We reached a turning point once when I realized she hadn’t lost treats yet and took her for one. I reminded her that I loved her and wanted her to be happy. I told her that I wished I could give her more treats and do more special things with her, but when she chose to misbehave I couldn’t, making me sad too.

Good luck and stay strong. This isn’t a quick fix, you have to be prepared for the long haul. But if you consistently show her that bad things happen when she disobeys, but good things can happen when she obeys, eventually she’ll recognize it’s in her best interest to cooperate. Remember, you aren’t doing this to her, she’s making the choice to accept a consequence rather than cooperate.

This post makes me cringe as a child psychologist. These is zero rhyme or reason for giving a 1 min time out for every year of life. You'll get more more improvement with positive reinforcement then repeated reminders, threats and punishment. I fully support punishments for specific behaviors but they don't make a child cooperate long term ( they can work short term if you scare your child but let's try to limit that)... punishment is most effective when paired with positive reinforcement for the positive opposite behavior.

Check out the everyday parenting toolkit by Alan Kazdin

[Anonymous]

Just 4 is still very little. Washing is non negotiable for us but we switched to showers for half the time and really just a quick butt and face wash with a hand held shower most days.
I try to be less irritable and make it fun at that age. The choice is "frog jumps or potato sack carry" to the bathroom. Or whee barrow walk etc etc.Choice of bath crayons or other silly toys. My kids can brush teeth in shower too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

This is the kind of thing where "natural consequences" don't really make sense. I agree with others, she likely doesn't need a bath every day, but, building this as a habit will definitely help teaching her about basic hygiene. Does she have sensory issues where she doesn't like the bath? Would she prefer using a washcloth and water, and just wash her face, behind ears, her bottom? Just brainstorming a bit. Personally i'd try the incentive chart approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

One of the reasons I would personally change the schedule in your situation is to put bath time in front of an immediate, logical consequence you're fully on board with imposing. Like missing game time before dinner, or something like that. You're going to have to impose that consequence and then STILL force the bath for at least a few days - be prepared. I imagine your child will scream and tantrum. I'd probably just say something like "we're staying in the bathroom until you're ready to take a bath" and then calmly block the door. Make sure you move everything breakable from the room before. You can obviously intervene physically for hitting or ripping stuff off the wall. But otherwise, you are an immoveable though empathetic boulder against which your child will rage for a while. As soon as they're done raging, you have the bath and move on. I would be standing there calmly like an absolute psychopath saying "wow, you're so mad, you really really don't want to take a bath. We have to take a bath even if you don't want to, because you need to be clean to stay healthy. Let me know when you're ready."

Is this good parenting? Honestly I don't care, I just want to get to sleep and have my kid grow up to be semi-functional. This would be my strategy because in my family, it would be the most effective. Although I started doing this way before 4 and now my kid gets upset and defiant, for sure, but rarely challenges my authority on something like this for long because she knows I'm immoveable. So probably she just has an easy personality and none of this will work for you. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Make the bath fun. not a chore. Are you doing it early enough? Have a fuzzy hooded towel? Not getting water in their eyes? If it's rushed and miserable of course they won't want to do it.

My kids absolutely wanted a bath (then shower) every night. As teens they still do, it helps them wind down, even if they didn't have a practice or go to the gym.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You talk about “telling her a million times” and “making threats”, but you don’t talk about what consequences you give her when she doesn’t comply. If all you’re doing is talking, then it doesn’t matter if you threaten her a million times because she knows you won’t follow through.

If that’s the case, then sometime when things are calm (not at bath time) sit her down and explain that you will now be enforcing consequences, and then do so. At bath time, you might give her a 5-minute heads up if she’s doing something else (“Five minutes until bath, wrap it up”), then tell her when it’s time for bath. If she’s uncooperative, remind her of the consequence, and if she doesn’t comply, give the consequence. If (like with my strong-willed child), she remains defiant, then impose another consequence until you find one that matters to her. If you have to make a list of lost privileges to keep track, do so.

On the other hand, find some time when she’s not in trouble to give her a treat, stressing that you love her and want to do nice things for her, but you can’t when she misbehaves.

Things may get worse for a while before they get better. She’s going to test whether you’re really committed or will give up. Be consistent and follow through every time.

Op here. Thanks again to all for the responses. Can you please tell me some of the consequences you use? I’m struggling with what are appropriate consequences.

With the bath stalling, we will tell her she is losing time to read and snuggle after bath (which she loves). I hate losing that time because it’s my favorite time too! There’s always the threat of no tv or treats, but I’ve read consequences need to be more immediate, not something she’d lose the following evening.

We talk a lot about helping each other as a family but I don’t think she honestly cares too much about that. 😂

Ideally, consequences would be immediate, but when the misbehavior happens at night, that may not be practical. If a consequence is delayed, then I’d give a reminder - “No, you can’t do X because, remember, last night you didn’t get in the bath when we told you”.

I know you hate giving up the cozy bedtime story, but it might be your most effective tool. Here are some other things you can try. I usually took them away according to my order of preference. For example, I’d take away treats/dessert readily, but books were one of the last things I’d take away.

Some consequences you might try:

time-outs (1 min/yr - so 4 minutes for a four year old) - good generally but might be counterproductive in this case because you’d be punishing her for delaying her bath by delaying her bath)

plain bath (no toys, bubbles, water dye, etc.)
earlier bedtime (if your schedule allows)
no treats
no TV
take away favorite toy (to play with - I wouldn’t take away comfort object)
no park (or playdate, special outing, etc.)
take away art/craft supplies
no puzzles
no games
keep taking away items/privileges

You’ll need to find out what matters to your child, and even then they may resist. With my strong-willed daughter I used to have to keep a list on the fridge of everything she lost, and sometimes it seemed pretty bleak, but she’d still tell me “It’s okay that you took away X, I can still do Y”. So then Y would be the next thing she’d lose.

Don’t forget to give her positive reinforcement when you can. We reached a turning point once when I realized she hadn’t lost treats yet and took her for one. I reminded her that I loved her and wanted her to be happy. I told her that I wished I could give her more treats and do more special things with her, but when she chose to misbehave I couldn’t, making me sad too.

Good luck and stay strong. This isn’t a quick fix, you have to be prepared for the long haul. But if you consistently show her that bad things happen when she disobeys, but good things can happen when she obeys, eventually she’ll recognize it’s in her best interest to cooperate. Remember, you aren’t doing this to her, she’s making the choice to accept a consequence rather than cooperate.

This post makes me cringe as a child psychologist. These is zero rhyme or reason for giving a 1 min time out for every year of life. You'll get more more improvement with positive reinforcement then repeated reminders, threats and punishment. I fully support punishments for specific behaviors but they don't make a child cooperate long term ( they can work short term if you scare your child but let's try to limit that)... punishment is most effective when paired with positive reinforcement for the positive opposite behavior.

Check out the everyday parenting toolkit by Alan Kazdin

Pp here

It actually sounds like we basically agree.

I don’t think any of the punishments I listed would scare a child.

I specifically recommended positive reinforcement. I think, however, it should be used on an intermittent basis. Otherwise it becomes a bribe and the child can start to expect quid pro quo for compliance. Intermittent positive reinforcement can be highly effective (which is why slot machines are so popular even though most plays won’t have a payout).

The 1 minute/yr of age guideline for time-outs has been recommended for years.

Here’s a link from the CDC advising it (Step 4 - End time-out)
https://www.cdc.gov/parents/essentials/toddlersandpreschoolers/timeout/steps.html#:~:text=A%20good%20rule%20is%20to,3%2Dminute%20time%2Dout.

Here’s the American Academy of Pediatrics advising 1 min/yr timeouts:
https://publications.aap.org/patiented/article/doi/10.1542/peo_document368/82017/Teaching-Good-BehaviorTips-on-How-to-Discipline

[Anonymous]

OP again. To clarify on the bath struggles, she loves it once she’s in! It’s the transitions that she struggles with. So we will be downstairs playing after dinner and give her a warning that in 5 min it’ll be time to go upstairs for bath and bedtime. She’ll go upstairs ok and then it turns into like 10-15 min of nonsense/wildness like harassing the dog, running around naked, getting distracted by toys etc. and at that point, I’m frustrated and just want her to get in the GD bath! And yeah, me getting frustrated always escalates both of us. But thanks again for a lot of these tips. There are a lot of good reminders for me. I know I can be rigid. She is so sweet and silly and I love her so much. She’s our only kid and I’m so thankful we have her. So i take it really hard when i get frustrated with her. She’ll tell me “mommy, it’s hard to be 4” and I’ll remember that, yes, it is really hard to be 4!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again. To clarify on the bath struggles, she loves it once she’s in! It’s the transitions that she struggles with. So we will be downstairs playing after dinner and give her a warning that in 5 min it’ll be time to go upstairs for bath and bedtime. She’ll go upstairs ok and then it turns into like 10-15 min of nonsense/wildness like harassing the dog, running around naked, getting distracted by toys etc. and at that point, I’m frustrated and just want her to get in the GD bath! And yeah, me getting frustrated always escalates both of us. But thanks again for a lot of these tips. There are a lot of good reminders for me. I know I can be rigid. She is so sweet and silly and I love her so much. She’s our only kid and I’m so thankful we have her. So i take it really hard when i get frustrated with her. She’ll tell me “mommy, it’s hard to be 4” and I’ll remember that, yes, it is really hard to be 4!

This sounds more like distraction than disobedience. Can you streamline the process? If she goes upstairs okay, maybe have her go straight to the bathroom. She can strip and use the toilet while you take her dirty clothes away and start to run the bath. Then she won’t have the opportunity to be distracted by toys, the dog, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no answers that are acceptable to gentle parenting, OP. My two year old is the same and we’ve never solved it after a year of coming and parenting classes. We just bribe with dye free M&Ms now.

I am the PP who suggested figuring out what you can let go. We make our kids do certain things, but we pick our battles. The point of my post was identifying where you can compromise or let go. Kids have very little control over their day and routines and we are happy to make them feel like they have a say for stuff that's not essential. I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but if so, that's what we try and do.

Was not responding to you and did not read your post. Just wanted OP to know some kids are extraordinarily stubborn and will never peacefully get with the program of doing reasonable things parents ask them to do. Ever. No matter how solid the routine is. I’ve been disappointed to find that no gentle parenting resources acknowledge this is a possible situation even after months and years of consistency.

M&Ms get us baths, non-screaming car rides, potty training, tooth brushing, and all other necessities of life.

I’m not sure what you consider gentle parenting but even the commonly cited examples like Janet Lansbury will tell you that sometimes you just have to step in and take over and make your kid do something. If you’re looking for a parenting method where the kids never fight you then I don’t think you’ll find one.

I’m looking for a parenting method where the kids don’t ALWAYS fight. Mine fought every single diaper change until potty training. Still fights every transition, every no, every nap, every putting on shoes, every “come here,” every tooth brushing, every hair washing, every getting in the car seat, etc. Physically making your 30 pound screaming, fighting toddler to do things 10-15 times a day is exhausting and terrible. It does not feel like a solution.

[Anonymous]

One thing I've learned with my four-year-old is that it's easier to set the conditions for good behavior than to punish bad behavior.

When it comes to bath, getting dressed, getting in the car seat, etc., she wants to feel in control. Obviously she shouldn't be in control of these decisions, but when I give her the illusion of control she complies way better. So for example, I might ask whether she wants to have a disco bath (put the disco ball in the bathroom and listen to the Bee Gees during her bath) or a plain bath. Or I'll challenge her to see whether she can get in the bath before I count to ten (she has the choice about whether she gets in right now, or 8 seconds from now). Or (with clothes) I'll have her compete with her brother to see who can get dressed first (she always "wins" because he's a baby, and obviously he couldn't care less). It's not perfect, but it sure works a lot better than trying to punish her and turning bathtime into a war of the wills.