School Shooting in Michigan. 3 Teens DEAD. 1 15-yr old suspect in custody.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

And he told the manager that it was his dad who gave him the weed!

To clarify-- his older brother, Eli, said that to the manager. The weed incident was prior to the of this video, where he falls down.

Pot doesn't make you stumble around like that, though, right? So the weed incident is just another indicator of what kind of parents they were. This stumbling and fall must have been caused by something else. Alcohol? But if Ethan were drunk, seems like that other employee would recognize it and react a little differently.

he might be medicated (with wrong dose), or possibly high.

I'm concerned this is the case of an Aspie child who was never evaluated or taught appropriately, as I've done all these years with my Aspie kid, and who doesn't know when, how and most importantly, to what degree, to express symptoms and feelings. Aspies often over-react or under-react to physical injury and abusive behavior (teasing, bullying) because they don't have a handy and instinctual graduated guide in their head to tell them what the appropriate response is. I've seen it time and time again with my husband and son, who are both high-functioning autistic. The immense majority of people with Asperger's are not and will never be physically violent, but for the minuscule subset that can be brought to violence, buying them a gun and ignoring their need for behavioral modification and specialized teaching can lead to lethal outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

I'll add that in many districts, once you involve a campus security officer, a report will be made to city or county police authorities. Student will have a history that will be documented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

And he told the manager that it was his dad who gave him the weed!

To clarify-- his older brother, Eli, said that to the manager. The weed incident was prior to the of this video, where he falls down.

Pot doesn't make you stumble around like that, though, right? So the weed incident is just another indicator of what kind of parents they were. This stumbling and fall must have been caused by something else. Alcohol? But if Ethan were drunk, seems like that other employee would recognize it and react a little differently.

he might be medicated (with wrong dose), or possibly high.

I'm concerned this is the case of an Aspie child who was never evaluated or taught appropriately, as I've done all these years with my Aspie kid, and who doesn't know when, how and most importantly, to what degree, to express symptoms and feelings. Aspies often over-react or under-react to physical injury and abusive behavior (teasing, bullying) because they don't have a handy and instinctual graduated guide in their head to tell them what the appropriate response is. I've seen it time and time again with my husband and son, who are both high-functioning autistic. The immense majority of people with Asperger's are not and will never be physically violent, but for the minuscule subset that can be brought to violence, buying them a gun and ignoring their need for behavioral modification and specialized teaching can lead to lethal outcomes.

Yes. Consequences will happen. No exceptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

Sounds fine to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

Sounds fine to me.

I can promise you there are MANY parents of troubled kids who are not served through special education and those with special needs who have behavioral manifestations who won't think it's fine, but if school personnel are going to be subject to lawsuits, then time to tighten up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

Sounds fine to me.

I can promise you there are MANY parents of troubled kids who are not served through special education and those with special needs who have behavioral manifestations who won't think it's fine, but if school personnel are going to be subject to lawsuits, then time to tighten up.

Well since those parents are part of the problem, I have no issues with their hurt feelings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

Sounds fine to me.

I can promise you there are MANY parents of troubled kids who are not served through special education and those with special needs who have behavioral manifestations who won't think it's fine, but if school personnel are going to be subject to lawsuits, then time to tighten up.

Well since those parents are part of the problem, I have no issues with their hurt feelings.[/quote]

x10000000

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
SO OVER people trying to use "bullying" - when that is exactly, exactly what they are doing. There is no excuse for shooting or injuring other students. Period. Stop deflecting, it is obvious. Handle your issues. Handle your anger issues.

Just ignore the "bully" posts. Off topic.

Bullying is something that people should be allowed to talk about
To me it sounds like he had an unhappy home and school kids sensed that and he ended up as an easy victim. None of this excuses anything, but it should be something that people can talk about without being accused

Sure. Talk about it at home, talk about it with a counselor, be a parent and get your kid the help he is literally crying out for.

Don't go to the school at school up the school.

Your problems should not be our problems.

Where is the help? Seriously. Everyone keeps saying, get the kid help. The help is on a 6 month waiting list. The kid, most likely, did not show signs of needing to be admitted to a hospital for immediate treatment. Weekly therapy is $200 a week plus - for a middle class family, that is the difference between affording their mortgage or therapy. Therapy covered by insurance is near impossible to come by. The process is slow and finding a good therapist on the first go around, is also close to impossible.
I am not implying that we shouldn't try but if you have not been in the situation to try to get your child help in the last year, you should not be screaming that. There.is.not.help.

DO, with a kid in therapy. I know how expensive it’s. Guess what, that does not change the fact that these kids need help. We cannot just throw up our hands. We need to be screaming our lungs out that we need a workable, affordable mental health system. We need to offer suffering families viable resources. We cannot just say it does not work, costs too much and walk away. People are suffering, raise our voices.

Let’s talk about why so many kids are so broken and don’t blame the pandemic - this was a problem well before Covid

Excellent point. Parents are more consumed with themselves, and less consumed with their children, perhaps. For instance, the parents of this particular shooter could not even be bothered to take him home that day, and clearly wanted him to be someone - anyone- else's problem.

Oh shut up. It isn’t always the parents fault. In this case, maybe. Maybe not.
Things happen biologically, physically and mentally to kids that cause trauma. Mental illness is not the parents fault.
The fact that people are recognizing many kids are “broken” and need help is actually a positive thing.

No one said that mental illness is the parents fault. Failing to get them the help they need, most certainly is. The school can't raise your kid.

We found a therapist that has a sliding scale fee. If you want to find the help, it most certainly is out there.

You shut up.

I'm not the previous poster but this "help" is illusory. The parents I know with kids with serious issues struggle constantly to find and afford help. Most of the help they can afford is very temporary.

These garbage parents didn’t try AT ALL. So spare us the sob story about “struggling constantly to find and afford help.”

Exactly. If there was a trail of attempts made to seek mental health treatment, if they hadn’t bought him a gun (or at the very least searched his backpack that day!!), if they had even seemed concerned enough to check him out of school when those concerns were raised, this would be a much different scenario. But these are parents who stuck their head in the sand. They just wanted a kid to have fun with (take him shooting and post about it on social media, laughing and telling him not to get caught searching ammo, etc). They absolutely failed in some very basic duties including simply being responsible gun owners who keep their weapon properly locked up.

Yes - they 100% failed him (and the school community) on the gun issue. No doubt or question there.
However, you have no idea if they sought treatment for their child. Pulling him out of school that day without being able to predict the future would have done no good. You cannot march directly into a therapists office within hours of having a school counselor call you in. The parents were horrifically irresponsible for giving him the gun but expecting them to pull him from school and find help within hours is delusional - recognizing that no one thought he would shoot up the school.

Well, clearly the parents didn't bother having a therapist at all for the kid, because "gummint", and because they had no where to go when the school told them to get their kid help within 48 hours, and they knew it. Their answer: hand the kid a gun. I think they knew he was a serious problem and a potential threat to other students, and simply did not care. They cared about no one but themselves, and maybe wanted the kid to live out one of their sick fantasies of shooting something up - like a school.

If the kid had a therapist (years over due), they would have thought to cooperate, but they could not be bothered with their own kid. Even took those parents 90 (!!!!!!) minutes to go pick him up, probably hoping the school would give up and send the killer back to class, which they ended up doing, eventually. And please, tell us why Tommy Tantrum was allowed to take a backpack into class, when the rule that applied to all students was that no backpacks were allowed in the classroom.

Disgusting pieces of GARBAGE. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is to hit everyone responsible where it hurts the most - their wallet and their freedom - because it's the only way that other parents and other school districts will wake up and think "gee, it could happen to me!".

Ok. And from now on, every single time a student draws violent pictures, writes a suicidal poem, recites scripted speech from violent video games that express harm to othets, call in parents and campus security, as well as a school administrator. Keep student in isolation until parents or DFCS comes to get student.

Sounds fine to me.

I can promise you there are MANY parents of troubled kids who are not served through special education and those with special needs who have behavioral manifestations who won't think it's fine, but if school personnel are going to be subject to lawsuits, then time to tighten up.

+1

We can only hope. The day to day is simply not safe with loose cannon parents and their loose cannon spawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I safely assume the most famous civil attorney in Michigan, Geoffrey Feiger -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Fieger -- will have a press conference next week announcing he's suing the district for a nine figure sum on behalf of the shooting victims and any students present at the high school that day.

Called it. Press conference today at 11AM by attorney Geoffrey Feiger. He is detailing two $100M lawsuits on behalf of a female shooting victim and her sister: https://www.abc12.com/news/crime/fieger-law-firm-files-100-million-lawsuits-over-oxford-high-school-shooting/article_155e8f94-58f4-11ec-9fe2-6f44839ef49c.html

"Defendants in the lawsuits include Oxford Community Schools, Superintendent Mark Throne, the Oxford High School principal, counselors, the dean of students, two teachers and another staff member."

GOOD. I fully support charging the parents but this needs to happen to. I can’t even count how many balls were dropped leading up to this.

+1

Yup. Time to stop kowtowing to the problem parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

And he told the manager that it was his dad who gave him the weed!

To clarify-- his older brother, Eli, said that to the manager. The weed incident was prior to the of this video, where he falls down.

Pot doesn't make you stumble around like that, though, right? So the weed incident is just another indicator of what kind of parents they were. This stumbling and fall must have been caused by something else. Alcohol? But if Ethan were drunk, seems like that other employee would recognize it and react a little differently.

he might be medicated (with wrong dose), or possibly high.

I'm concerned this is the case of an Aspie child who was never evaluated or taught appropriately, as I've done all these years with my Aspie kid, and who doesn't know when, how and most importantly, to what degree, to express symptoms and feelings. Aspies often over-react or under-react to physical injury and abusive behavior (teasing, bullying) because they don't have a handy and instinctual graduated guide in their head to tell them what the appropriate response is. I've seen it time and time again with my husband and son, who are both high-functioning autistic. The immense majority of people with Asperger's are not and will never be physically violent, but for the minuscule subset that can be brought to violence, buying them a gun and ignoring their need for behavioral modification and specialized teaching can lead to lethal outcomes.

x10000000

Cpping mechanisms - if the parents don't have it, their kids won't either. Period.

[Anonymous]

*Coping

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I safely assume the most famous civil attorney in Michigan, Geoffrey Feiger -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Fieger -- will have a press conference next week announcing he's suing the district for a nine figure sum on behalf of the shooting victims and any students present at the high school that day.

Called it. Press conference today at 11AM by attorney Geoffrey Feiger. He is detailing two $100M lawsuits on behalf of a female shooting victim and her sister: https://www.abc12.com/news/crime/fieger-law-firm-files-100-million-lawsuits-over-oxford-high-school-shooting/article_155e8f94-58f4-11ec-9fe2-6f44839ef49c.html

"Defendants in the lawsuits include Oxford Community Schools, Superintendent Mark Throne, the Oxford High School principal, counselors, the dean of students, two teachers and another staff member."

I haven't read the complaint yet, but suing the teachers seems like a stretch--even for Geoff.

Well, now I've read it and it doesn't seem like a stretch anymore. He's probably right.

Can you give the gist of why the teachers?

They failed no notify the school safety officer, despite having real concerns that this student would be violent. And the steps they did take--failure to notify law enforcement, calling parents they knew to be negligent based on the student's social media posts, having the kid sitting in the office for hours without a bag check--made it more likely that he would engage in violence at school, not less.

I don't think any of that is incorrect. Whether they will owe civil penalties for it in Michigan is not a thing I know.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I do think the gun culture of the area complicated the matter for the school social worker. If guns are a past time/hobby for the family, it’s hard to say whether searching bullets during class is seriously problematic or more like searching to sports equipment wit switch games online during class (not ideal but NbD). Because the parents perceive their gun cultut as under threat, they don’t listen to any concerns that their son has an abnormal relationship with guns — plus it’s probably hard for the social workers to even gauge what is healthy or not.

+1

Agree, it is impossible to gauge the insanity.

This is a great point. Guns are such an big part of the culture there that the school would have to be careful. You know these crappy parents were ready to turn this into a 2a issue rather than looking at their kid and realizing he needed help.

No. All of this ignores the absolutely horrifying drawing and extremely disturbing language written on the drawing. If it were “just” the ammo search I could see your point, but it wasn’t.

Did the guidance counselor he saw on the Tuesday know about the bullet search on the Monday? He explained the drawing as part of a video game, the parents backed him up. Lots of kids his age play violent video games, so it really wouldn't be that surprising.

You clearly haven’t read a detailed description of the drawing.

The kid modified the drawing between when the teacher saw and reported it and the meeting about it.

This is so idiotic. Why was he allowed to keep the drawing in his possession to change or destroy it?

The school is going down in flames and they will deserve it. SHOCKINGLY mismanaged all around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
SO OVER people trying to use "bullying" - when that is exactly, exactly what they are doing. There is no excuse for shooting or injuring other students. Period. Stop deflecting, it is obvious. Handle your issues. Handle your anger issues.

Just ignore the "bully" posts. Off topic.

Bullying is something that people should be allowed to talk about
To me it sounds like he had an unhappy home and school kids sensed that and he ended up as an easy victim. None of this excuses anything, but it should be something that people can talk about without being accused

Sure. Talk about it at home, talk about it with a counselor, be a parent and get your kid the help he is literally crying out for.

Don't go to the school at school up the school.

Your problems should not be our problems.

Where is the help? Seriously. Everyone keeps saying, get the kid help. The help is on a 6 month waiting list. The kid, most likely, did not show signs of needing to be admitted to a hospital for immediate treatment. Weekly therapy is $200 a week plus - for a middle class family, that is the difference between affording their mortgage or therapy. Therapy covered by insurance is near impossible to come by. The process is slow and finding a good therapist on the first go around, is also close to impossible.
I am not implying that we shouldn't try but if you have not been in the situation to try to get your child help in the last year, you should not be screaming that. There.is.not.help.

DO, with a kid in therapy. I know how expensive it’s. Guess what, that does not change the fact that these kids need help. We cannot just throw up our hands. We need to be screaming our lungs out that we need a workable, affordable mental health system. We need to offer suffering families viable resources. We cannot just say it does not work, costs too much and walk away. People are suffering, raise our voices.

Let’s talk about why so many kids are so broken and don’t blame the pandemic - this was a problem well before Covid

Excellent point. Parents are more consumed with themselves, and less consumed with their children, perhaps. For instance, the parents of this particular shooter could not even be bothered to take him home that day, and clearly wanted him to be someone - anyone- else's problem.

Oh shut up. It isn’t always the parents fault. In this case, maybe. Maybe not.
Things happen biologically, physically and mentally to kids that cause trauma. Mental illness is not the parents fault.
The fact that people are recognizing many kids are “broken” and need help is actually a positive thing.

No one said that mental illness is the parents fault. Failing to get them the help they need, most certainly is. The school can't raise your kid.

We found a therapist that has a sliding scale fee. If you want to find the help, it most certainly is out there.

You shut up.

I'm not the previous poster but this "help" is illusory. The parents I know with kids with serious issues struggle constantly to find and afford help. Most of the help they can afford is very temporary.

These garbage parents didn’t try AT ALL. So spare us the sob story about “struggling constantly to find and afford help.”

You don’t know what they did and didn’t do.

OK, Pollyanna. They even refused to take him home that day. They’re Right Wing gun nuts. Mom wrote a Trump manifesto and texted “lol you have to learn not to get caught” when he googled ammunition sales in a school building.

But I’m sure they’ll come out in the trial with all of the many, many documented and repeated efforts they made to get their son mental healthcare. Can’t wait.