Offering Support to Jewish Friends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are people also wondering the same about Palestinians? Muslims? Or is it okay that they are dying

there are many, many more Jewish people in the US than Palestinian. So most people don’t know any Palestinians. But in NE cities like DC everyone knows someone Jewish. So that’s why this is a topic.

This is kinda BS. There are lots of Palestinians in the US. And more Arab-Americans have checked on me (including Palestinian Christians) than my fellow travelers on the political left. They understand that there has been an epic change in the relationship between our two peoples. Whereas the crunchy white intellectuals are reverting to carrying the water of white supremacy and importing chattel slavery notions of race against the backdrop of mass roses, beheaded children, etc. And I have checked on them, and we have cried together - because Hamas is a terrorist group - that film it’s massacres and torture, and that changed history.

C'mon now. This isn't true, and telling yourself you're a victim isn't good for you.

Your antisemitism isn’t good for me - and likely poisonous for your children.

-Brown Jewess Not Putting up with Your Inner Bile.

Your persecution complex is entirely unjustified by anything in that post, and wanting to be a victim so badly is definitely not good for you.

Downplaying Jewish trauma and accusing Jews of hysteria are very classic antisemitic tropes - so that really looks bad for you obvi, but is dangerous for Jewish children: your good opinion is a badge of shame, not honor.

o

So you want to be able to rant about "crunchy white liberals" and call anybody who calls you out on it an anti-semite? Shameful.

Dude, I’m a red diaper baby and spent my early years on a commune. Crunchy white liberals are from whence I came and my political home. But the same people that I am in the trenches with in the reproductive justice movement are giving zero sh$$ts about rape of prepubescent girls and gang rapes of many teens and women - and yep, that’s hella shameful and racist AF. Antisemitism is racism. And your tone-policing of my anger is also heavy on misogyny.

Dude, nobody gives zero sh$$ts about rape of prepubescent girls and gang rapes in Israel. We all think its horrific, but some think it's equally horrific in Israel as in Palestine--and that's the problem, because mention "and Palestine too" and suddenly people like you call them anti-semitic.

I’m sure you are called antisemitic a lot - perhaps b/c you are centering yourself in a religion forum written by Jews r: comforting Jews, or by pretending to be a liberal but espousing illiberalism. Or leading with minimizing sexual violence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are people also wondering the same about Palestinians? Muslims? Or is it okay that they are dying

there are many, many more Jewish people in the US than Palestinian. So most people don’t know any Palestinians. But in NE cities like DC everyone knows someone Jewish. So that’s why this is a topic.

This is kinda BS. There are lots of Palestinians in the US. And more Arab-Americans have checked on me (including Palestinian Christians) than my fellow travelers on the political left. They understand that there has been an epic change in the relationship between our two peoples. Whereas the crunchy white intellectuals are reverting to carrying the water of white supremacy and importing chattel slavery notions of race against the backdrop of mass roses, beheaded children, etc. And I have checked on them, and we have cried together - because Hamas is a terrorist group - that film it’s massacres and torture, and that changed history.

C'mon now. This isn't true, and telling yourself you're a victim isn't good for you.

Your antisemitism isn’t good for me - and likely poisonous for your children.

-Brown Jewess Not Putting up with Your Inner Bile.

Your persecution complex is entirely unjustified by anything in that post, and wanting to be a victim so badly is definitely not good for you.

Downplaying Jewish trauma and accusing Jews of hysteria are very classic antisemitic tropes - so that really looks bad for you obvi, but is dangerous for Jewish children: your good opinion is a badge of shame, not honor.

o

So you want to be able to rant about "crunchy white liberals" and call anybody who calls you out on it an anti-semite? Shameful.

Dude, I’m a red diaper baby and spent my early years on a commune. Crunchy white liberals are from whence I came and my political home. But the same people that I am in the trenches with in the reproductive justice movement are giving zero sh$$ts about rape of prepubescent girls and gang rapes of many teens and women - and yep, that’s hella shameful and racist AF. Antisemitism is racism. And your tone-policing of my anger is also heavy on misogyny.

Dude, nobody gives zero sh$$ts about rape of prepubescent girls and gang rapes in Israel. We all think its horrific, but some think it's equally horrific in Israel as in Palestine--and that's the problem, because mention "and Palestine too" and suddenly people like you call them anti-semitic.

I’m sure you are called antisemitic a lot - perhaps b/c you are centering yourself in a religion forum written by Jews r: comforting Jews, or by pretending to be a liberal but espousing illiberalism. Or leading with minimizing sexual violence.

I'm sure you are called a liar a lot--perhaps because you keep insisting that liberals minimize sexual violence (this sounds like MAGA talking points 101, by the way, and you seem conservative yourself). Or perhaps because multiple posters here are asking why non-Jews don't get in touch and that's a question only non-Jews can answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread was supposed to be about how to offer support to Jewish friends but is instead has people saying how bad Israel is, Palestinians are suffering, etc. - like most of social media.

It's like talking offense at BLM and saying All Lives Matter.

Of course all lives matter, and that obviously includes Palestinian people.

But this discussion underscores how many people will not acknowledge that Jewish lives matter, including all those murdered, raped, and taken hostage during the terrorist attacks.

It's always "but but but..." even in a thread specific to offering support to Jewish friends, at a time when antisemitism continues to increase.

No, read the OP. This thread was about a Jewish person feeling uncomfortable that people were reaching out to her!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that

many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does.

Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

Obviously I have no idea of actual numbers, but I can tell you, as a Jew that is active in my community and has a wide circle of Jewish friends, that I don’t know anyone who thinks this and I genuinely think that the view you have expressed above is a minority one amongst Jews. So if you’re not saying anything because you think all Jews want you to say everything Israel does is right and that all Gazans support Hamas, then I’m telling you that you’re wrong about that. And you should still be able to say to those people - whoever they are - that you condemn the actions of Hamas, that you are sorry for the atrocities committed in Israel, AND ALSO that you are sorry about Israel’s actions in Gaza. If I, as a Jew who knows some of the victims, can hold these two conflicting views in my head, then I think you can too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m Jewish. I’m not asking people to say that Hamas terrorism is bad but that everything Israel has done/will do in Gaza is fine. I’m hoping people will acknowledge that Hamas’s actions were grotesque atrocities, and that whatever you think about the complex situation in Gaza, you can condemn rape and massacre of people in their homes and at a music festival, and taking innocent people hostage. Of course you can also say that you condemn all the loss of all the innocent Palestinians, and that you wish for peace - this is also what all the Jews and Israelis I know say too.

Jewish schools, synagogues and community centers have all either massively stepped up security or closed over the last week. Children are being told not to wear any visibly Jewish symbols. Mosques, Muslim schools and Islamic cultural centers haven’t had to do any of those things because no one is threatening them - which is great! But don’t you wonder why only one of these groups has to protect itself whenever something happens like this?

Feel better now?

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/boy-mother-stabbed-in-plainfield-twp-were-targeted-because-of-their-islamic-faith-police/3251248/?amp=1

“In a news release issued earlier this week, CAIR-Chicago reported a spike in hate calls/emails as a result of recent violence in the Middle East. The dozens of messages the organization received in recent days rivaled the amounts received following the Sept. 11 terror attacks and former President Trump's travel ban targeting Muslim-majority countries, according to the group.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

I wasn’t expecting to say this, but in your case I would suggest saying nothing to your Jewish friend as I don’t think your conversation with her will end well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

Yeah, it’s tough with the entrenched extremist positions on both sides, where people are waiting to attack you for not agreeing fully with them. In that case indeed best to say nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more