Offering Support to Jewish Friends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Op ever come back? Most everyone has ignored her point altogether, especially the Jewish people who are complaining people didn’t reach out to them.

OP asked if other Jewish people felt the same way she did about non-Jewish friends reaching out. Many Jewish posters "complaining" (as you put it) were responding to OP to say that they didn't share her feelings and would have appreciated outreach from our non-Jewish friends. That's not "ignoring her point altogether;" it's just explaining why some of us don't feel the same way.

OP here. This. I feel like my question was addressed, I gained some different perspective, and the conversation drifted in a way where I am interested in following but felt no need to contribute further.

I’ve always been proudly Jewish and love a lot about my heritage. But I’ve had a lot of friction with other Jews, mainly in my family, as I don’t put up with sexism, even when religiously traditional, and have always been very critical of current Israeli politics. So, I can, somehow, at the same time feel saddened and horrified at the attack on “my” people, saddened and horrified at the situation in general, and annoyed to be assumed by acquaintances to have a connection to Israel, as a political entity that I do not feel.

My DH is Jewish and is adamantly anti-Israel (on a political level) yet at the same time understands what it means to some Jews as a homeland separate from politics. But he has absolutely zero interest in waving the Israeli flag, thinks AIPAC’s influence in DC is absurd, etc. There’s a small group of very progressive Jews like him. But by and large, many American Jews, like most Americans in general, don’t have nuanced views on foreign policy and just sort of vaguely “support Israel” without understanding what that means concretely in terms of war. That said, it is true that if you are in the Jewish community in the US you are never too far removed from someone with concrete ties to Israel, so that makes it more real.

I am trying to decide how to characterize this statement…obnoxious? uninformed? dismissive? elitist? dangerous? Hmmm, I can’t pick just one.

What, that most Americans are uniformed about the nuances of foreign policy? That seems pretty non controversial to me.

No, that people "vaguely" support Israel. Or that you would make this claim in the context of this thread, where people are more likely to be invested in the issue and multiple PPs have noted that they have friends and/or family in Israel. Or that people don't see nuance on this issue (because, again, I think we've seen a lot of nuance on this thread).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Op ever come back? Most everyone has ignored her point altogether, especially the Jewish people who are complaining people didn’t reach out to them.

OP asked if other Jewish people felt the same way she did about non-Jewish friends reaching out. Many Jewish posters "complaining" (as you put it) were responding to OP to say that they didn't share her feelings and would have appreciated outreach from our non-Jewish friends. That's not "ignoring her point altogether;" it's just explaining why some of us don't feel the same way.

OP here. This. I feel like my question was addressed, I gained some different perspective, and the conversation drifted in a way where I am interested in following but felt no need to contribute further.

I’ve always been proudly Jewish and love a lot about my heritage. But I’ve had a lot of friction with other Jews, mainly in my family, as I don’t put up with sexism, even when religiously traditional, and have always been very critical of current Israeli politics. So, I can, somehow, at the same time feel saddened and horrified at the attack on “my” people, saddened and horrified at the situation in general, and annoyed to be assumed by acquaintances to have a connection to Israel, as a political entity that I do not feel.

My DH is Jewish and is adamantly anti-Israel (on a political level) yet at the same time understands what it means to some Jews as a homeland separate from politics. But he has absolutely zero interest in waving the Israeli flag, thinks AIPAC’s influence in DC is absurd, etc. There’s a small group of very progressive Jews like him. But by and large, many American Jews, like most Americans in general, don’t have nuanced views on foreign policy and just sort of vaguely “support Israel” without understanding what that means concretely in terms of war. That said, it is true that if you are in the Jewish community in the US you are never too far removed from someone with concrete ties to Israel, so that makes it more real.

I am trying to decide how to characterize this statement…obnoxious? uninformed? dismissive? elitist? dangerous? Hmmm, I can’t pick just one.

What, that most Americans are uniformed about the nuances of foreign policy? That seems pretty non controversial to me.

No, that people "vaguely" support Israel. Or that you would make this claim in the context of this thread, where people are more likely to be invested in the issue and multiple PPs have noted that they have friends and/or family in Israel. Or that people don't see nuance on this issue (because, again, I think we've seen a lot of nuance on this thread).

DP. I think it may be inaccurate to say that people who join this thread--or any thread--are invested or knowledgable about an issue. How many threads have I seen where people totally ignorant of the subject matter chime in with their opinions and even advice. DCUM threads are open to anybody....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fellow Jewish people, I have a WWYD question that is related to the OP.

I posted on Friday afternoon a quote from a podcast about how it's hard for non-Jews to understand how the Hamas attack on Israel feels like an attack on the global Jewish population. It was a statement about the nature of antisemitism and also an attempt for the US-based non-Jewish podcaster to express sympathy with the Diaspora Jewish community as they went on in the episode to discuss the specifics of last week's attacks and the history of the I/P conflict. I thought the episode was really well done and specifically appreciated the quote as a non-Jewish voice expressing the sense that they don't fully understand the hurt within the Jewish community, but still feel for us and for all the innocent lives lost in this war.

I have a Facebook friend who is an acquaintance from a job I had 12 years ago. We saw each other in the halls at work and I was only in that job for a year, so we didn't get to know each other and haven't kept in touch. This Facebook acquaintance messaged me on Saturday night to ask if I view the recent Armenian ethnic cleansing as "terror on the global population of Armenians" or if I could otherwise clarify the quote from the podcast. I haven't responded and my gut sense is not to respond, since I don't really know her and I feel like she's engaging in "whataboutism." Would you take the time to respond? Or just ignore it?

No response and delete her from your "friend" list. Even if she were Armenian, sendinng the "question" to you (and it is not a question, it is her attempt to put you in your place) is at the very least poor taste and at the most anti-Semetic. If she were sincere and/or one who was affected by armenian ethnic cleansing, she would be symphatic and not ask this "question" (scare quotes intended).

Wow. What a sad way to interpret a question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fellow Jewish people, I have a WWYD question that is related to the OP.

I posted on Friday afternoon a quote from a podcast about how it's hard for non-Jews to understand how the Hamas attack on Israel feels like an attack on the global Jewish population. It was a statement about the nature of antisemitism and also an attempt for the US-based non-Jewish podcaster to express sympathy with the Diaspora Jewish community as they went on in the episode to discuss the specifics of last week's attacks and the history of the I/P conflict. I thought the episode was really well done and specifically appreciated the quote as a non-Jewish voice expressing the sense that they don't fully understand the hurt within the Jewish community, but still feel for us and for all the innocent lives lost in this war.

I have a Facebook friend who is an acquaintance from a job I had 12 years ago. We saw each other in the halls at work and I was only in that job for a year, so we didn't get to know each other and haven't kept in touch. This Facebook acquaintance messaged me on Saturday night to ask if I view the recent Armenian ethnic cleansing as "terror on the global population of Armenians" or if I could otherwise clarify the quote from the podcast. I haven't responded and my gut sense is not to respond, since I don't really know her and I feel like she's engaging in "whataboutism." Would you take the time to respond? Or just ignore it?

No response and delete her from your "friend" list. Even if she were Armenian, sendinng the "question" to you (and it is not a question, it is her attempt to put you in your place) is at the very least poor taste and at the most anti-Semetic. If she were sincere and/or one who was affected by armenian ethnic cleansing, she would be symphatic and not ask this "question" (scare quotes intended).

Wow. What a sad way to interpret a question.

+1

[Anonymous]

My Jewish neighbors immigrated from Brooklyn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, and the difference to me this time is that I have seen social media posts after this attack that specifically say “your silence is noticed”.

This exactly.
The “silence is violence” mantra that permeates recent protests and online discourse of left-leaning posters makes me feel like my Jewish friends who are also quite left-leaning may be offended if I don’t verbalize my horror at the actions of a terrorist group whose stated intent is to exterminate Jews.

And where I might have previously thought it unnecessary to express my personal condemnation of Hamas in this way, because isn’t it obvious??, I don’t want my friends to wrongly assume that my silence on this matter means I support Hamas and antisemitism.

It seems absurd to verbalize that.
But the new rules of rhetoric seem to dictate that it’s required.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Op ever come back? Most everyone has ignored her point altogether, especially the Jewish people who are complaining people didn’t reach out to them.

OP asked if other Jewish people felt the same way she did about non-Jewish friends reaching out. Many Jewish posters "complaining" (as you put it) were responding to OP to say that they didn't share her feelings and would have appreciated outreach from our non-Jewish friends. That's not "ignoring her point altogether;" it's just explaining why some of us don't feel the same way.

OP here. This. I feel like my question was addressed, I gained some different perspective, and the conversation drifted in a way where I am interested in following but felt no need to contribute further.

I’ve always been proudly Jewish and love a lot about my heritage. But I’ve had a lot of friction with other Jews, mainly in my family, as I don’t put up with sexism, even when religiously traditional, and have always been very critical of current Israeli politics. So, I can, somehow, at the same time feel saddened and horrified at the attack on “my” people, saddened and horrified at the situation in general, and annoyed to be assumed by acquaintances to have a connection to Israel, as a political entity that I do not feel.

It would annoy me to have acquaintances assume my politics as well. That said, I think there is a difference in feeling a connection to Israel as an idea and a connection to Israel in reality. One can feel connected in both ways. Or one can feel like the idea of Israel is important as a homeland or safeguard of world Jewry, without agreeing with the policies of the Israeli government (either toward women and liberal/secular Jews or toward non-Jewish citizens and residents). In my experience, it's very hard to parse that sentiment for non-Jews.

I feel like it's the same as being a patriotic American for our ideals of freedom and equality while at the same time recognizing that our country doesn't live up to those ideals. Except so much of "patriotism" here has been co-opted to mean "Republican" so I guess it's fair to say that it's difficult to understand regardless of your nationality, ethnicity, or religion.

As an aside, I don’t think it’s been “co-opted” by Republicans so much as ceded to them by Democrats. When comedians or liberal pundits started making fun of small-town southerners by holding American flags and referring to “‘merica!”…they distanced themselves from patriotism and associations with the symbolism of the flag. But patriotism is supposed to be for everyone in our country—including democrats.
ask Aaron Sorkin, who wrote the best speech I’ve ever heard on patriotism (used in the movie “The American President”):

“America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to want it bad, because it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours…”

Pretty sure democrats have ling since abandoned that argument in favor of just shutting down the speaker and labeling opposing thought as “hate speech”

I’d personally like to see liberal Democrats embracing liberalism again, as well as patriotism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have family in Israel so I had appreciated friends saying to me: saying wow what is going on is horrible and how is your family. I see the Hamas supporters in the politics thread here that I should stop reading and I’m glad to know I’m not friends with people like that.

OP here. I might feel completely different if I had family, or friends, or any personal connection to Israel. But, as it stands, these are people with whom I've never discussed Israel, who are assuming a personal connection based on my religion only.

The problem with wide calls for people to express support to Jewish people is that people then do so without seeing Jewish people are more than one big blob with the exact same feelings about Israel.I

Most Americans don’t understand the nuances or much about Israel so that may play a role too.

I’m Jewish and don’t plan to offer support to anyone. What could I honestly do to be helpful? Nothing. So, the offer would be insincere.

But isn’t this pretty much a summary of the problem with the entire “identity politics” ideaology?
Lumping people into required groupthink on ANY one issue based on religious or ethnic or racial identity (apart from the obvious objection to being discriminated against based on that shared trait) is problematic because it feeds into assuming shared thoughts based on stereotypes and neglects to regard people as individuals whose thoughts and opinions are shaped by their own unique experiences.

But to address the last part—as a non-Jew I feel like the “what I can honestly do to be helpful” question is an unknown at this moment. But the empathy behind the offer of support is meant to provide comfort to our Jewish friends as a “just in case…I got your back.” I want my friends to know that if anyone were targeting them for destruction for a reason that excluded me from being a direct target, I will stand with you. My house is open. I am a refuge. That’s the way I see the offer of support.

[Anonymous]

I agree and i also find it strange how the media seems to be only showcasing the stories of murdered Israelites when there are so many murdered Palestinians. There have been very strange reactions to this and I think many dont even know how to react or what to do

[Anonymous]

I am Jewish and while I do not feel a strong connection to the Middle East, I feel a very strong one to the United States, where my family has lived for over 400 years.

I am heartbroken for the Antisemitism and Islamophobia being reported in our great nation as a result of a war happening thousands of miles away. While we are powerless to do anything abroad, please do our best to show kindness to our neighbors here and demand kindness from others. We can show the world that Jews and Muslims live in peace and stand up for each other, condemn hatred and violence anywhere, and require humanity and lovingkindness everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's something I can't really discuss in real life.

Over the past few days, I've seen a lot of social media offering support to Jewish friends and posts from Jewish friends suggesting people offer support. People have reached out to me in light of what is happening in Israel that never did during say, the synagogue attacks in the United States or other events that felt much more connected to me as a Jew in the United States. I get the good instinct, which is why I'd never say anything other than thank you. But does this make anyone else uncomfortable? I get that religion and politics are inexorably intertwined in Israel; however, there is something I really don't like about the assumption that, as a Jew, I have a special connection to the country of Israel, any more than I would, Ukraine, for example, where my grandparents actually came from. It seems a really short distance from the dual loyalty trope.

In case this is too vague, I've had texts, for example, from people I've haven't spoken to in months, offering "support to my family in this difficult time."

You captured exactly how I feel.

I'm an American, people. I have no say in Israeli politics. And while I am heartbroken to see the antisemitism anywhere in the world, I am equally heartbroken to see any hatred in the world, including Islamaphobia. I'm not Israeli and stop conflating the two. There are Muslim and Christian Israelis (as well as every other religion). Why aren't you reaching out to the Muslims and Christians?

I worry about the conflation of Jews and Israel - like we've spent so much time trying to convince crazy people on the right and the left that Jews don't all have some secret special loyalty to Israel. But now we're dealing with this attack, which is feeling personal even for those of us who aren't Israel and don't have family there/

I have no easy answers, or any answers at all. I just worry - I worry about a lot of things.

To the person whose coworker asked about Armenia - I don't know what I'd say, if anything. It does feel like a bait, not an actual question. I think simply ignoring is probably best.

It's feeling personal because it was motivated by Antisemitism -- hatred for Jewish people, which includes you. That is the personal and scary part, and that is the reason you are heartbroken. I feel that way too, whenever I see Antisemitism.

But I agree with the OP which is that I don't understand why people who I never talk to at all are checking in with me as if I am Israeli. I don't speak a word of Hebrew, don't go to Israel, don't have any family in Israel, don't feel any strong connection to Israel. My family is from Poland/Ukraine/Russia, and I don't even feel strong connections to that region. And, what I find so weird is that no one checked in on me when the Pittsburgh shooting happened and that definitely was a lot scarier for me and my family.

The problem with conflating American Jews with Israel isn't that American Jews are Zionists (e.g. believe in the right of the State of Israel to exist as I am a strong Zionist), but that Jews have no vote in Israel, no say in the politics, and no say in the war. We are Americans , people. We vote in America.

My problem with reaching out to Jews specifically is that other religions were targeted -- I just read about a Palestinian Muslim taxi driver who was kidnapped, too. While the attack may have been motivated with a hatred towards Jews, the country of Israel is a country of all religions and people, like the United States, and it wasn't just Jews who were killed, even if they were the majority -- just like it wasn't just Christians killed in 9/11, even if they were the majority.

I don't know -- it's all so heartbreaking and stressful. I haven't slept in a week. I just want peace in the middle east.

[Anonymous]

I think it all has to do with the quality of the friendship. If you are close friends then yeah, the next time you see her, you ask in an open-ended way “How has it been for you?” But putting something on FB or texting every Jewish person something that suggests you you know how they are feeling is definitely performative and awkward. Exception being if you know they have family in Israel, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree and i also find it strange how the media seems to be only showcasing the stories of murdered Israelites when there are so many murdered Palestinians. There have been very strange reactions to this and I think many dont even know how to react or what to do

I've seen lots of media about murdered and injured Palestinians. Check out CBS news - excellent empathetic coverage of the toll on innocent people on both sides. Last week Norah O'Donnell was in tears reporting about twin Israeli babies who were orphaned in the initial Hamas attack. Today, they covered a Palestinian doctor who found out while he was on shift that his wife and children were injured and one of his sons didn't make it. The whole thing is just awful. (And also Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be condemned).

[Anonymous]

NPR has a lot of coverage of what’s happening in Gaza.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NPR has a lot of coverage of what’s happening in Gaza.

Agree. I’ve heard stories featuring American Jews, Israelis and Palestinians.