Offering Support to Jewish Friends

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

If you can’t condemn Hamas, then yeah, just don’t start the conversation.

Meanwhile I don’t know a single Jewish person who fits the caricature you seem intent on creating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

If you’re creating an imaginary Jew based on your read of the DCUM politics forum … you’ve got issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

If you can’t condemn Hamas, then yeah, just don’t start the conversation.

Meanwhile I don’t know a single Jewish person who fits the caricature you seem intent on creating.

This is exactly it. What makes you think that person can't condemn Hamas? Nothing. And for this caricature, just click on over to the Politics forum and you'll see multiple examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

If you’re creating an imaginary Jew based on your read of the DCUM politics forum … you’ve got issues.

Wait, so the posters on the DCUM politics forum are fake Jews? Seriously????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

If you can’t condemn Hamas, then yeah, just don’t start the conversation.

Meanwhile I don’t know a single Jewish person who fits the caricature you seem intent on creating.

This is exactly it.

What makes you think that person can't condemn Hamas?

Nothing. And for this caricature, just click on over to the Politics forum and you'll see multiple examples.

What makes me think it? The fact that people aren’t actually saying it! You are apparently one of them, you’re afraid that if you say it you’ll have to have another conversation where you equate all Palestinians to Hamas. Honestly, in the words of a Guardian columnist this week:

“It isn’t that difficult. You can condemn Hamas and name its actions as evil, even as you support the Palestinians in their quest for a life free of occupation and oppression. And there should still be room in your heart for a Jewish child whose last moments were filled with unimaginable terror – the same terror his grandparents, and their grandparents, thought they had escaped for ever.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

I absolutely feel terrible that good and innocent people are caught in the middle. I don’t accept that one side is bloodthirsty and evil

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

I absolutely feel terrible that good and innocent people are caught in the middle. I don’t accept that one side is bloodthirsty and evil

Do you understand that many people believe this is incredible hypocrisy then?

The problem with many is that it's convenient to draw binaries. i mean 9/11 was awful and should not have happened, but it's also possible to understand some of the sentiments behind the motivation. It's not a justification, but merely an explanation. No halfway moral person wants to see anyone innocent experience suffering or pain, even if they are different than them. I believe people on both sides/all see this, and have compassion for "the other."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

I absolutely feel terrible that good and innocent people are caught in the middle. I don’t accept that one side is bloodthirsty and evil

Do you understand that many people believe this is incredible hypocrisy then?

The problem with many is that it's convenient to draw binaries. i mean 9/11 was awful and should not have happened, but it's also possible to understand some of the sentiments behind the motivation. It's not a justification, but merely an explanation. No halfway moral person wants to see anyone innocent experience suffering or pain, even if they are different than them. I believe people on both sides/all see this, and have compassion for "the other."

I don’t understand what you are saying. The motivation for Hamas’s attacks is that it hates Jews. That’s not hyperbole, it is in its charter. They want Israel eliminated and all Jews wiped off the face of the earth. They also don’t really like America, for what it’s worth. That isn’t a justification or a defense, it’s just an explanation. The motivation for Israel now going into Gaza is to free the hostages Hamas took, and kill all of the Hamas members it can find in order to stop Hamas from raping, murdering and kidnapping its citizens. Its goal isn’t to exterminate all Palestinians or all Muslims or even all Gazans. If Hamas wants to release the terrorists and stop hiding with civilians then they can easily reduce casualties. You can hate what Israel is doing in response to Hamas’s attacks but the Israeli government does not actually have indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians as its motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

Yes, I'm willing to condemn Hamas, and I've already done so. But I know this person, and although it might stop there, there's also a good chance it won't. Just read the Politics forum--there are plenty of posts asking others to condemn all Gazans or Palestinians as terrorists, and to ignore IDF abuses, and posts calling anybody who stops short of that a terrorist sympathizer. I don't want my friend to put me in that position.

If you’re creating an imaginary Jew based on your read of the DCUM politics forum … you’ve got issues.

Wait, so the posters on the DCUM politics forum are fake Jews? Seriously????

Yes, the anonymous posters on the DCUM politics forum totally represent what OP’s friend believes. Totally!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

I absolutely feel terrible that good and innocent people are caught in the middle. I don’t accept that one side is bloodthirsty and evil

Do you understand that many people believe this is incredible hypocrisy then?

The problem with many is that it's convenient to draw binaries. i mean 9/11 was awful and should not have happened, but it's also possible to understand some of the sentiments behind the motivation. It's not a justification, but merely an explanation. No halfway moral person wants to see anyone innocent experience suffering or pain, even if they are different than them. I believe people on both sides/all see this, and have compassion for "the other."

I don’t understand what you are saying. The motivation for Hamas’s attacks is that it hates Jews. That’s not hyperbole, it is in its charter. They want Israel eliminated and all Jews wiped off the face of the earth. They also don’t really like America, for what it’s worth. That isn’t a justification or a defense, it’s just an explanation. The motivation for Israel now going into Gaza is to free the hostages Hamas took, and kill all of the Hamas members it can find in order to stop Hamas from raping, murdering and kidnapping its citizens. Its goal isn’t to exterminate all Palestinians or all Muslims or even all Gazans. If Hamas wants to release the terrorists and stop hiding with civilians then they can easily reduce casualties. You can hate what Israel is doing in response to Hamas’s attacks but the Israeli government does not actually have indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians as its motivation.

Have you ever thought - "Why does Hamas say they hate Jews?" I'm not by any means saying all Jews or all Israelis are responsible for all the atrocities committed against Palestinians, but in order to move towards a better world, we have to ask the tough questions. People in places like Gaza are angry and suffering, and sometimes it's easy to point a blanket finger at a broad group. Many are destitute and hopeless. Blaming all Jews (and certainly killing all Jews) is an incredibly superficial fix to what these groups perceive as their problem, and their basic human needs are not being met.

Like in 9/11 - when we were told they hate our way of life, so 'Death to America?" There are reasons why people in Afghanistan were angry at America. It is reductionist and naive to think that they hate Americans and America for no reason, whatsoever (despite most Americans not being responsible for the crimes of our government).

Our government in America has done some unbelievably awful, horrific, bloodthirsty and evil things, in the name of ordinary Americans. It's depressing. There are ordinary Israelis and Palestinians who are also depressed and infuriated at the crimes being committed in their names.

If peace is truly the goal, we need to try to understand where people are coming from, even when they say they hate or wish death upon someone. There's a lot of work being done on this regarding white supremacy, but the same logic can be applied in the Middle East.

[Anonymous]

I’m Jewish and appreciate the sort of awkward generic texts I’ve been getting from friends that say things like, “I just wanted to check in, we live in depressing times.” I know they don’t want to say the wrong thing but want me to know they “see” me and have empathy for my pain. And for me, it is pain. And as a mother of Jewish kids, it’s fear as well. These friends by and large don’t know that I have five cousins serving in the IDF because I only met them once, 25 years ago, and I don’t talk about them, but as a Jewish American who is witnessing all sorts of antisemitism in my country and seeing the kind of horrific attacks Hamas inflicted on the people of Israel, it’s hard not to feel vulnerable and scared and also quite connected to what’s happening across the world. And for the record, my heart is breaking for all the innocent victims of this horror, including those who live in Gaza.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Let me say that I love having you as a friend. I love learning about your traditions and eating your food.

I would love to call you up and express my horror and deepest sympathy over Hamas' attacks last weekend. I would love to empathize with you over what's happening to your friends and family who are in Israel now.

But if I've learned anything from DCUM over the past week, it's that many of you expect me to agree that all Gazans and Palestinians support Hamas. Many of you expect me to agree that Israel is right in absolutely whatever it does. Some of you have actually argued in the Politics forum that the IDF's human rights abuses are justified. It's there on the screen for me to see.

And I just can't agree with some of that.

So, in some of your eyes, it would be just as bad if I do reach out--but then I go silent when you say "all" Gazans support Hamas. You expect my full-throated support for everything Israel does, and I'm falling short of that.

I don't know if you're one of those posters. But I don't want to take the chance that you are. Because if you are, you'll call me an anti-semite (a term that rolls so very, very easily off so many tongues) and it will wreck our friendship.

OK, let’s try this. This is an anonymous forum, so there is no risk to your friendships. You tell us what you want to say to those Jewish friends that you think might risk them calling you an antisemite. We will tell you whether we think your statements are antisemitic.

OK. I want to express my deepest concern for my friend and her family. I want her to know that I care about her anxiety.

But my friend is passionately proud of her heritage and in the past has said something like "we stand with Israel" when the situation has been complex.

Here's where it gets hard. I'm not going to raise it, but I suspect my friend will. I suspect she will ask me directly to condemn Hamas, and that she's very likely to be one of those people who claims all Gazans are Hamas members and therefore, if Israel levels the country, then it's Hamas' fault and Israel was just defending itself. You can find this sentiment expressed a gazillion times on the Politics forum over the past week. If I disagree, like the others in the Politics forum she's going to call me an anti-semite, even though that's not what's going on. And our friendship will be over.

I’m the PP you are responding to, I’m Jewish and I definitely say that I stand with Israel. That essentially means that I support Israel’s right to exist and right to defend itself. It doesn’t mean I support everything the Israeli government does and it doesn’t mean I think all Gazans support or are members of Hamas. So I am asking, genuinely and without wanting to offend or anything, but why do you think your friend thinks this? Is it because she has said that, or because she says she stands with Israel? And when you say she’ll ask you condemn Hamas… do you not? They are a terrorist organization, as designated by the US and other governments.

NP. The problem is what it means for Israel to exist in the way that it defends itself. Look @ What Israel is announcing it will do "in defense" of itself

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just sharing my perspective (I can’t speak for everyone. I am Jewish and grew up in a very Jewish area and have many friends on social media who are Jewish, but also lots who are not. After George Floyd lots of people of all backgrounds were posting. When Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of people were posting. During me too lots of people were posting, and so on and so forth. Yes, it’s a bit performative. But the overall vibe was we are in this together and we offer our support. This week, in my feed, lots of people were posting… but they were all Jewish. It was very conspicuous to me. The non Jews were not saying anything. I didn’t need their personal condolences but their silence felt eerie to me, like maybe they were keeping silent because they actually thought it was ok what happened or justified. We got impassioned letters about every other topic from the school system, but nothing for days about this (and then some really lukewarm messaging). In the absence of support or condemnation of the attack, we noticed this was not like all the other incidents where violence was called out. It added discomfort to an already very upsetting situation.

I'm Jewish and noticed the same thing. After other incidents in recent years, FB was full of BLM posts, Ukraine flags, etc. Yes, it's probably performative but, as you said, it was also a show of support. This time it's crickets. It's not politically correct for liberals (and I'm a Dem.) to acknowledge Jewish victims. Per usual, Jews (whether Israeli or of other nationalities) are held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government -- a standard that doesn't apply to other groups. The murder of Jews - elderly, women, children, young people at a peace concert - is minimized because supposedly they brought it upon themselves. These same people would never want to be held to account for Trump's actions. Yet for Jews it's different.

I am devastated by what's happening in Israel. I, and most Jewish people I know, have a connection to Israel (whether it's having friends or family there, having Israeli expat friends here, having spent time in Israel, etc.) and some are descendants of Holocaust survivors. A few non-Jewish friends reached out to me, simply to express how terrible things are and are thinking of me, and it meant a lot to me!

On the other hand, I've seen so much antisemitism this week in comments online and some of the statements on college campuses...it's very disheartening. I have a colleague who is very nice and very progressive. We see each other about once a week and always touch on current events in our conversations. It was so obvious when she said nothing this week, which I guess was a show of restraint for her.

Some of the supportive comments here from non-Jewish people made me feel better. Thank you.

What happened in Israel is atrocious, and it's also in the face of terrible abuses against Palestinians for generations.
Add in that that many people interpret pro-Palestinian as anti-semitic (not saying that is you but it's true) and you have that people don't want to say anything because it 1) it seems like we are condemning only Palestine, and it's more complicated than that, and 2) you raise Palestinians as also being victims, and you may be labeled anti-Semitic.

Well said. Some are apparently afraid that saying anything at all, even "know that I care about you and your family," will open the door to follow-up demands that they distill a complicated issue into blanket condemnation of Palestinians and disregard for Palestinian suffering. Which could easily lead to charges of anti-semitism and ruin friendships. And if you read some of the posts on DCUM, where some (not all) of Israel's supporters openly state they don't give two sh!!ts about the Palestinians, and they label as antisemitic anybody who expresses disgust with Hamas but is also concerned about settlements or something, that fear seems justified.

So it's possible op's friends are trying to save the friendship?

I'm going to call you out on something. There are a lot of liberal Jews who want a two-state solution (most of us do) and want Palestinian self rule over their own land - but EVEN though we want that, if we do not also denounce the legitimacy of Israel, we are not welcome in the liberal conversation. We have been, over the past decade, pushed out of the activist circles because we are forced to make a choice. Exactly why do you think that is? It has become crystal clear to me that indeed, antisemitism is the common undercurrent against which I have been swimming, and blind to, until last Saturday. And if you are going to force me to choose, I'm choosing Israel.

They’re doing you a favor because those circles are atrocious to begin with. Sorry you are just now figuring it out

PP here, yes that has also become crystal clear.

Sad but true. It pains me to say this but my friends who are most "progressive" are eerily silent on this. I guess I'm supposed to be grateful that they're not telling me what they actually think.

Most sensible people know it's more complicated. Of course the crimes by Hamas are appalling and sickening. But I most definitely do not, at all, stand with Israel.

I stand with the innocents on both sides, who just want to live their lives peacefully, and have terrorism (including Israeli state terrorism) committed in the name of their identity.

I just feel so profoundly depressed by this, although I guess it is the least of the emotions I’ve had this week. Maybe this thread should be locked now, because it certainly isn’t addressing the OP’s question any more

You feel depressed by the expression and acknowledgement that good people are caught in the middle of evil, bloodthirsty people on both sides? And that both "sides" have a lot of atrocities done in their name?

I absolutely feel terrible that good and innocent people are caught in the middle. I don’t accept that one side is bloodthirsty and evil

Do you understand that many people believe this is incredible hypocrisy then?

The problem with many is that it's convenient to draw binaries. i mean 9/11 was awful and should not have happened, but it's also possible to understand some of the sentiments behind the motivation. It's not a justification, but merely an explanation. No halfway moral person wants to see anyone innocent experience suffering or pain, even if they are different than them. I believe people on both sides/all see this, and have compassion for "the other."

I don’t understand what you are saying. The motivation for Hamas’s attacks is that it hates Jews. That’s not hyperbole, it is in its charter. They want Israel eliminated and all Jews wiped off the face of the earth. They also don’t really like America, for what it’s worth. That isn’t a justification or a defense, it’s just an explanation. The motivation for Israel now going into Gaza is to free the hostages Hamas took, and kill all of the Hamas members it can find in order to stop Hamas from raping, murdering and kidnapping its citizens. Its goal isn’t to exterminate all Palestinians or all Muslims or even all Gazans. If Hamas wants to release the terrorists and stop hiding with civilians then they can easily reduce casualties. You can hate what Israel is doing in response to Hamas’s attacks but the Israeli government does not actually have indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians as its motivation.

Have you ever thought - "Why does Hamas say they hate Jews?" I'm not by any means saying all Jews or all Israelis are responsible for all the atrocities committed against Palestinians, but in order to move towards a better world, we have to ask the tough questions. People in places like Gaza are angry and suffering, and sometimes it's easy to point a blanket finger at a broad group. Many are destitute and hopeless. Blaming all Jews (and certainly killing all Jews) is an incredibly superficial fix to what these groups perceive as their problem, and their basic human needs are not being met.

Like in 9/11 - when we were told they hate our way of life, so 'Death to America?" There are reasons why people in Afghanistan were angry at America. It is reductionist and naive to think that they hate Americans and America for no reason, whatsoever (despite most Americans not being responsible for the crimes of our government).

Our government in America has done some unbelievably awful, horrific, bloodthirsty and evil things, in the name of ordinary Americans. It's depressing. There are ordinary Israelis and Palestinians who are also depressed and infuriated at the crimes being committed in their names.

If peace is truly the goal, we need to try to understand where people are coming from, even when they say they hate or wish death upon someone. There's a lot of work being done on this regarding white supremacy, but the same logic can be applied in the Middle East.

I think we have slightly strayed from the point here. Would you really have had this particular conversation with a friend who had lost someone in NYC a week after 9/11?