Offering Support to Jewish Friends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jew here. My non-Jewish friends and family didn't reach out to me after Pittsburgh or so far related to Israel, even though I work in a Jewish institution and regularly attend synagogue. My take after Pittsburgh was that, of course, everyone was appalled by what had happened, so I didn't really need anyone to specifically check on me, because I could assume they weren't supportive of massacring people. Would it have been nice for someone to ask me how I was doing after Pittsburgh? Absolutely. But I wasn't really hurt that nobody did, because there was no doubt in my mind that they were horrified.

The difference I feel with regard to the current situation in Israel is that not only has nobody checked in to see how I'm feeling about the situation or how my friends and coworkers who live there are doing, but that so many of my non-Jewish friends (and honestly some of my lefty/DSA Jewish friends) are offering up "nuanced" takes on the violence, as if there can be any justification for Hamas' slaughter. SO MANY of them are posting about oppression in Gaza without a WORD of sympathy for behe@ded Israeli babies or r@ped Israeli women or mut!lated Israeli grandparents. And saying "oh, Hamas is doing this because of XYZ Israeli policy" is f*ing excuses and victim blaming. There is NO excuse.

We can talk about Israeli policy toward Gaza and we can talk about US and international aid and we can talk about what Palestinian freedom without terrorism would/could possibly look like (not now, because I don't have the space in my heart for it), but we need to also talk about Jewish and Israeli pain. You want to add nuance to this war? Let's talk about the complicated relationship between Israel and the Jewish Diaspora. Let's talk about the balance between security and freedom. Let's talk about how we didn't want to be judged by President Trump and maybe Israel doesn't want to be judged by Bibi. Let's talk about how I have so many liberal Jewish friends (myself included) who support human rights and don't like the right wing government in Israel and also need Israel to exist, because of the Holocaust and because of Charlottesville and because of Pittsburgh. And I have so many liberal Jewish friends who have to bury their Jewishness in certain liberal spaces in order to advocate for others, because Jewish = Israel in those spaces and intersectionality is great, unless it's Jewish. It's HARD to want ALL THE THINGS at once, but here we are.

So, yes, I think the non-Jews need to say something and check in.

Well said.

As a liberal non-Jew, we did not have time to grieve for the Jewish people because the Israeli govt started bombing and killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians. That is why the focus and outrage is on the genocide of the Palestinian people because it is STILL going on 12 days after the original attack. We need a ceasefire and negotiations to return the kidnapped people. We need to care for those displaced and injured on both sides.

Jewish woman here, with family in Israel. I agree with you 100% that the outrage and grief and focus right now must be on the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza, killings and arrests in the West Bank, first of all. Because the catastrophe they are experiencing is a dire emergency. If nobody reaches out to me because they're too upset about what's happening to the innocent, then I am grateful and right there with them.

“For people that feel like their pain is being devalued, it’s because it is; and that devaluation is itself a hallmark of the cycle of the diminishing value of human life”

This was a line in an article I read recently on Jewish Currents and it stuck out to me. Terrorist groups attacking innocent people is tragic and governments committing war crimes is also tragic. I understand that people are overwhelmed by the scope of the brutality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Posting because I just need a venue to get this out. I’m struggling right now. I’m Jewish but don’t consider myself a Zionist. I have some distant family in Israel, who have been there since 1915 or so escaping the pograms in Russia so we’ll before the establishment of Israel. I think the current Israeli government is trash. But the attacks on the 7th were just shocking to the system and the reaction that Israel deserved it just hits me at my core.

But I also don’t feel as connected to what’s going on as some of my other Jewish colleagues who have been actively pushing our leadership to say something about the Hamas attack. Of course that is only met with calls about how the plight of the Gazans is worse. Why does this have to be the battle of the oppressed? But alas that’s what it feels like and the inability for us to acknowledge the greatest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust is leading to calls of antisemitism.

I’m just emotionally tired from all of this.

It’s gaslighting. It’s people “being over” Jewish trauma of the Holocaust and expecting us to have moved on. It’s more of the same that we have had to deal with for two millennia. Really didn’t think I’d see this in my lifetime. I see you…and I’m exhausted, too. But if I’m going to be pushed into a corner and denied the ability to hold two truths simultaneously, I’m going to choose Israel. And I’m learning to be ok with that. Hugs.

The thing is, you don’t have to choose a side in the sense of believing that one side is somehow right and innocent.

Terrorists murdering people is always wrong, and the Hamas attacks were evil with no possible justification at all. Also, there’s a lot wrong with the current Israeli government. Both things are true. Jingoistic denial of that truth doesn’t make the world better.

I say all this as someone who used to live in Israel.

you are not listening to me. people on the left are making American Jews choose. i don't want to choose but yes, the progressive circles are forcing us to. and believe me, i am no fan of the israeli govt or netanyahu, but that is not what i'm talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Posting because I just need a venue to get this out. I’m struggling right now. I’m Jewish but don’t consider myself a Zionist. I have some distant family in Israel, who have been there since 1915 or so escaping the pograms in Russia so we’ll before the establishment of Israel. I think the current Israeli government is trash. But the attacks on the 7th were just shocking to the system and the reaction that Israel deserved it just hits me at my core.

But I also don’t feel as connected to what’s going on as some of my other Jewish colleagues who have been actively pushing our leadership to say something about the Hamas attack. Of course that is only met with calls about how the plight of the Gazans is worse. Why does this have to be the battle of the oppressed? But alas that’s what it feels like and the inability for us to acknowledge the greatest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust is leading to calls of antisemitism.

I’m just emotionally tired from all of this.

It’s gaslighting. It’s people “being over” Jewish trauma of the Holocaust and expecting us to have moved on. It’s more of the same that we have had to deal with for two millennia. Really didn’t think I’d see this in my lifetime. I see you…and I’m exhausted, too. But if I’m going to be pushed into a corner and denied the ability to hold two truths simultaneously, I’m going to choose Israel. And I’m learning to be ok with that. Hugs.

The thing is, you don’t have to choose a side in the sense of believing that one side is somehow right and innocent.

Terrorists murdering people is always wrong, and the Hamas attacks were evil with no possible justification at all. Also, there’s a lot wrong with the current Israeli government. Both things are true. Jingoistic denial of that truth doesn’t make the world better.

I say all this as someone who used to live in Israel.

you are not listening to me. people on the left are making American Jews choose. i don't want to choose but yes, the progressive circles are forcing us to. and believe me, i am no fan of the israeli govt or netanyahu, but that is not what i'm talking about.

I feel very strongly that we don't have to let the loudest voices decide for us how we approach this.

I unfortunately frequent some Reddit boards - and people there are insanely anti-Israel. They are bashing any celebrity who even speaks the name Israel without following it with "deserves every thing that these nasty terrorists are giving them."

I can't let these people - ignorant, hateful people, who are being socialized into thinking that supporting terrorists is somehow the moral thing - define my thinking here.

I think Biden is actually approaching this very intelligently, and morally. We support Israel and we also don't want people in Gaza to suffer, because of what Hamas has done and is doing. This is the mainstream view. The marginal view is to go whole hog on one side or another. It's just that mainstream people are not shouting on social media or getting tons of attention.

Don't let these fringe people push your beliefs or values, I guess, is what I believe. Don't give them that power. They are a loud group and a dangerous group, and a disappointing group, but they are not the mainstream (outside of the nasty internet).

That's what I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Posting because I just need a venue to get this out. I’m struggling right now. I’m Jewish but don’t consider myself a Zionist. I have some distant family in Israel, who have been there since 1915 or so escaping the pograms in Russia so we’ll before the establishment of Israel. I think the current Israeli government is trash. But the attacks on the 7th were just shocking to the system and the reaction that Israel deserved it just hits me at my core.

But I also don’t feel as connected to what’s going on as some of my other Jewish colleagues who have been actively pushing our leadership to say something about the Hamas attack. Of course that is only met with calls about how the plight of the Gazans is worse. Why does this have to be the battle of the oppressed? But alas that’s what it feels like and the inability for us to acknowledge the greatest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust is leading to calls of antisemitism.

I’m just emotionally tired from all of this.

It’s gaslighting. It’s people “being over” Jewish trauma of the Holocaust and expecting us to have moved on. It’s more of the same that we have had to deal with for two millennia. Really didn’t think I’d see this in my lifetime. I see you…and I’m exhausted, too. But if I’m going to be pushed into a corner and denied the ability to hold two truths simultaneously, I’m going to choose Israel. And I’m learning to be ok with that. Hugs.

The thing is, you don’t have to choose a side in the sense of believing that one side is somehow right and innocent.

Terrorists murdering people is always wrong, and the Hamas attacks were evil with no possible justification at all. Also, there’s a lot wrong with the current Israeli government. Both things are true. Jingoistic denial of that truth doesn’t make the world better.

I say all this as someone who used to live in Israel.

you are not listening to me. people on the left are making American Jews choose. i don't want to choose but yes, the progressive circles are forcing us to. and believe me, i am no fan of the israeli govt or netanyahu, but that is not what i'm talking about.

I feel very strongly that we don't have to let the loudest voices decide for us how we approach this.

I unfortunately frequent some Reddit boards - and people there are insanely anti-Israel. They are bashing any celebrity who even speaks the name Israel without following it with "deserves every thing that these nasty terrorists are giving them."

I can't let these people - ignorant, hateful people, who are being socialized into thinking that supporting terrorists is somehow the moral thing - define my thinking here.

I think Biden is actually approaching this very intelligently, and morally. We support Israel and we also don't want people in Gaza to suffer, because of what Hamas has done and is doing. This is the mainstream view. The marginal view is to go whole hog on one side or another. It's just that mainstream people are not shouting on social media or getting tons of attention.

Don't let these fringe people push your beliefs or values, I guess, is what I believe. Don't give them that power. They are a loud group and a dangerous group, and a disappointing group, but they are not the mainstream (outside of the nasty internet).

That's what I think.

Np
I really agree with this. The loudest voices drive discourse and that has held true for more than politics. It's one of humanity's flaws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jew here. My non-Jewish friends and family didn't reach out to me after Pittsburgh or so far related to Israel, even though I work in a Jewish institution and regularly attend synagogue. My take after Pittsburgh was that, of course, everyone was appalled by what had happened, so I didn't really need anyone to specifically check on me, because I could assume they weren't supportive of massacring people. Would it have been nice for someone to ask me how I was doing after Pittsburgh? Absolutely. But I wasn't really hurt that nobody did, because there was no doubt in my mind that they were horrified.

The difference I feel with regard to the current situation in Israel is that not only has nobody checked in to see how I'm feeling about the situation or how my friends and coworkers who live there are doing, but that so many of my non-Jewish friends (and honestly some of my lefty/DSA Jewish friends) are offering up "nuanced" takes on the violence, as if there can be any justification for Hamas' slaughter. SO MANY of them are posting about oppression in Gaza without a WORD of sympathy for behe@ded Israeli babies or r@ped Israeli women or mut!lated Israeli grandparents. And saying "oh, Hamas is doing this because of XYZ Israeli policy" is f*ing excuses and victim blaming. There is NO excuse.

We can talk about Israeli policy toward Gaza and we can talk about US and international aid and we can talk about what Palestinian freedom without terrorism would/could possibly look like (not now, because I don't have the space in my heart for it), but we need to also talk about Jewish and Israeli pain. You want to add nuance to this war? Let's talk about the complicated relationship between Israel and the Jewish Diaspora. Let's talk about the balance between security and freedom. Let's talk about how we didn't want to be judged by President Trump and maybe Israel doesn't want to be judged by Bibi. Let's talk about how I have so many liberal Jewish friends (myself included) who support human rights and don't like the right wing government in Israel and also need Israel to exist, because of the Holocaust and because of Charlottesville and because of Pittsburgh. And I have so many liberal Jewish friends who have to bury their Jewishness in certain liberal spaces in order to advocate for others, because Jewish = Israel in those spaces and intersectionality is great, unless it's Jewish. It's HARD to want ALL THE THINGS at once, but here we are.

So, yes, I think the non-Jews need to say something and check in.

Well said.

As a liberal non-Jew, we did not have time to grieve for the Jewish people because the Israeli govt started bombing and killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians. That is why the focus and outrage is on the genocide of the Palestinian people because it is STILL going on 12 days after the original attack. We need a ceasefire and negotiations to return the kidnapped people. We need to care for those displaced and injured on both sides.

This is insane. As a Arabic speaker who lived in the Middle East for many years and is as pro-Palestinian as anyone, I’ve got to say that this is an insane response. Any Arab or Western government would have done exactly the same thing that Israel has. ANY government. Most would have done far worse.

PP, did you mourn the 400,000 Iraqi conscripts that GWB ordered carpet bombed during the first gulf war? How about the hundreds of thousands killed in Yemen? How about the 1.2 million Iraqi civilians killed in the Iraq war?

right. the choice of “who to mourn for” has a LOT more to do with where you attention has been directed by propaganda and/or other acculturation to belief that the group is deserving of special protection. very very little to do with an impartial analysis or consistent moral framework or understanding of war/foreign relations.

that said there is some integrity in a viewpoint that is “pro-peace” and against US intervention abroad. However there are very very few people who believe this - not many eg who are skeptical of US involvement in both Ukraine and Israel.

[Anonymous]

I also think the voices online justifying rape, murder and kidnapping of elderly, children, civilians are intentionally provocative and extreme—- and I doubt whether anyone would actually say that in real life to someone’s face, someone they actually knew. Very easy to be extreme online.

[Anonymous]

This thread is a political thread, why is it not in the political forum?