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Will Fenty win the DC mayoral primary against Gray?
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Anonymous
This is a complete straw man's argument. No one said that privilege equates to white folks not working hard. Privilege is a system of unearned benefits. There is white privilege. Male privilege. Hetero privilege. Cis privilege. Christian privilege. Beauty privilege. On and on. There is also black privilege. Female privilege. Gay privilege. Depending on context, there is always a privilege group and an oppressed group. Sometimes that privilege is HUGE and sometimes it is minor. Sometimes one is privileged on one demographic and oppressed on another. The common thread is that it is UNEARNED. The problem is that often times earned benefits are built on foundations of UNEARNED benefits. That is why white, male privilege, in particular, is so pervasive in our society. Going back generations, whites and males were a legally privileged class. Voting rights, land ownership, etc, etc, etc were nearly exclusive to white males. Now, that's obviously changed. But the LEGACY of that still exists. So, maybe you earned your way through college on your own. Good for you. You worked hard and I won't deny that. But, odds are, if you are a white American who is not from a recently immigrant family, your family benefited from this system of legal privilege, which has trickled down to you today. If your great, great grandfather was a slave instead of a landowner, let's say (note: LANDowner, not SLAVEowner), do you think your situation would be the same today? Likely not. That, my friend, is privilege. What if you are a white American who recently immigrated here? Does that excuse you from privilege? Not quite. You still benefit from the positive perceptions we have of whites, partly built on this historic legacy. Whites are far more likely to get loans, get call backs on jobs, be shown houses in suburbs, even when all other things are equal. So, yea, you still benefit. Is possessing privilege an inherently bad thing? No. It's what is. EVERYONE has SOME form of privilege. What is problematic is when people act as if they are entitled to this privilege, which is essentially to argue that one deserves something undeserved. Read up on the issue instead of relying on a mischaracterization of it and you'll better understand. Problems arise when we rely on this nonsense and act as if trying to level an unlevel playing field is somehow unfair. Think of it this way: Suppose you and I were playing a game. The game dictated that I started with 100 points and you started with 0. And every time I scored, I got 5 points and every time you scored, you got 1 point. AND, the goal I was trying to score on was twice the size of yours. After a while, I would hold a substantial lead on you and it would keep growing. Now suppose someone stepped in and said, "That's not fair! Each score is 1 point. The goals are the same size. Now finishing playing," but never corrected the already-existing scoring discrepancy. I've got a 10,000 to 200 lead on you. Even on a level playing field, are things "fair"? Is your chance of winning "fair"? Now, add in the fact that we can trade in points for additional players, which better our chances. I have a war chest of points to tip the field back in my favor. In that situation, would telling me we had to start over at 0-0 be wrong? Would it be "stealing" from me? Hell no. That is what the fight to undo privilege is. Unfortunately, people seem to think the game is already 0-0 and we're trying to get privileged folk to start in the negative. Not the case. Not for a second. |
Anonymous
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Boy, that was really enlightening. I've never been exposed to these ideas before. Tell me, do you condescend to people for a living? You should. You're disgustingly good at it.
And actually, I do come from a family of disadvantaged immigrants. So your theory, at least as to me, is totally blown. But please come back soon. It's a lot of fun to run circles around you. |
Anonymous
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How did you run circles around me? You didn't even respond to my post except get defensive and insist I am being "condescending". Given that you completely misrepresented what privilege is, I felt it necessary to offer correct information. Either you genuinely misunderstood, whereby you should be open to hearing accurate information OR you did so deliberately to strengthen your case, in which case there is little point to discussing with you since you seem satisfied to bathe yourself in falsehoods.
As for being from a family of disadvantaged immigrants... let me ask you something: is your family from Western Europe? Do you speak unaccented English? Are you white? If you, you still maintain privilege. You walk into a store or a bank or a job interview and folks see a white person and you are suddenly credited with the privileged perception afforded white folks. Does that mean you also don't have some aspects of yourself and family that will attribute oppression? Of course not. But you are still the beneficiary of a system of privilege in most areas of life. So, yea, theory NOT blown. Sorry, try again. If you REALLY want to run circles around me, how about you actually RESPOND to what I said. Show me where I'm wrong. I'm all ears. Until then, enjoy celebrating your ignorance on this particular topic. I've studied privilege. It is a major part of the work I do. While I may not know every singe thing about it, it is readily apparent I know more than you do. We can argue how relevant it is, how impactful it is, but for you to say it's X when it is clearly Y is as futile as arguing that red is blue. |
Anonymous
| 22:40, you should give up on 21:30. You're trying to make actual arguments and 21:30 has figured out that all she/he has to do is taunt you and you'll keep trying to make real arguments. Face it, 21:30 doesn't want a grown up conversation, she/he just wants to control you. |
Anonymous
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22:40: I never misrepresented privilege. Another poster astutely pointed out that in DC, "privilege" is code word for "White". And you have proven that poster correct.
Your explanation reads like something one might find in a high school textbook. In your first paragraph, you state that all groups may be privileged in some contexts; you then devote what remains of your post to stereotyping Whites. There are several fallacies with your argument. You conceded that I may have paid my way through college and graduate school, studied hard and done well, and that I may have indeed "earned" some of the benefits that stemmed from that. But you then theorized that my ability to get into college was built on a foundation of systemic privilege based on my being White. You now state (directly above) that as long as my family originated in Western Europe (!), and I speak unaccented English, and I am White, I am still a long-term beneficiary of unearned privilege, which should be stripped from me in the name of justice. My maternal Grandfather was a Holocaust survivor. He came to the United States with no family at all (they had been exterminated), a lot of health problems (obviously) and not a penny to his name. My paternal grandparents immigrated from Russia, also due to oppressive conditions (you know how much they liked Jews over there -- actually, I take that back -- it is obvious that you don't know much of anything). Both of my parents grew up in working-class households, and they were the first in my family to go to college. After my father graduated from Boalt Hall, top of his class, and editor of the Law Review, he interviewed with a few firms. At two of these interviews, the managing partner concluded the interview in a very friendly way: He told him his resume looked great and that it had been so nice to speak with him, but that the firm couldn't hire any more Jews. Two managing partners said that to his face. And yet while you would grant that my family may have faced "some oppression", you would still maintain that I am a long-term beneficiary of unearned privilege in "[b]most areas of my life[[b]". Everything my parents achieved was the result of intelligence, hard work, and sheer tenaciousness. The proposition that, in the face of all the disadvantages faced by my family, we are nevertheless long-term beneficiaries of systemic, unearned privilege is repulsive. And I am certain that there are plenty of White people reading this right now who are considering their own family circumstances and thinking the same thing I am: You have negatively stereotyped a huge group of people, based only on the color of their skin. You have stated that as long as you are White and speak unaccented English, you are, at least in part, a long-term beneficiary of systemic, unearned privileged which is not deserved and should be taken away. You are a bitter, ignorant and repulsive racist. And believe me, I may be the only White person willing to come up to bat and share the facts of my family history in order to refute your vile crap, but there are lots of White people reading this right now, nodding their heads, and remaining silent. Until September 14, when you will hear from us, loud and clear. A lot of people just don't have the stomach or energy to confront you. We feel the bile rising in our throats as we think about it, and we just decide to stay silent. But make no mistake: You are a poor excuse for a walking asshole. Who probably thinks that the Holocaust never happened; or that the Jews brought it on themselves; or that it has been over-blown and is a legitimate matter for debate; or that it was a long time ago and it doesn't matter anymore, and that Jews are doing relatively well. And yes, as a whole, we are. But not as the result of any foundation of unearned, systemic privilege. And this outdated, blanket notion you have that all White, English-speaking people walk into a store or a bank or a job interview and are suddenly accorded unearned privilege is pure bullshit. Maybe for some White "folk" (your word), at some times, in some places, and in certain circumstances; but to argue that all a White person has to do is show up to be afforded unearned privilege is not only wrong, but disgusting. Especially in the face of all the programs that have been put into place by the government to benefit those that have suffered discrimination: Affirmative action; loans and tax-breaks for small and minority businesses; subsidized minority housing, and the list goes on and on and on. . . But please, keep coming back to shit on all White people who speak unaccented English. Please, please, allow White voters more opportunities to smell a bit more of your stench. It will only encourage a greater turn-out. |
Anonymous
I'm not one of the major adversaries here, and like you, I come from an east European Jewish immigrant background. So let me try, in a friendly way, to suggest that you would best serve yourself, fellow Jews, fellow whites, and everyone else, by not ranting any more. |
Anonymous
| Fine, but let me ask you this: what adjective would you use to describe her level of discourse? |
Anonymous
Which "she"? And did Gray actually promise to attack privilege in some way? As a white Ward 4 resident, I'm not feeling attacked in the slightest by anything Gray has said. |
Anonymous
Frankly, I don't know how anyone can say this. What about luck? What about coincidence? What about serendipity? There is a happy medium in between owing one's fate entirely to status and privilege and owing one's fate entirely to the sweat of one's brow. In fact, it's the level at which most of society functions. |
Anonymous
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The all-whites-you-speak-unaccented-English-is-a-long-term-beneficiary-of-unearned-privilege-which-should-be-stripped-from-them-in-the-name-of-justice poster. That "she".
At the Ward 3 Straw Poll, Gray said the following, "I know you all are very concerned about your "home values" (scare quotes intended) and your "children", and I'm not against any of that, I'm not going to take away from any of that, but other Wards need more help, so don't expect to be seeing any more of that." There was a clear note of sarcasm in his voice when he said it; and it was clear that he was talking to the Washington Post rather than the residents of Ward 3. While I walked in with an open mind, this statement was enough to lose my vote. I don't think this kind of divisiveness is what the city needs right now, and I don't hear Fenty talking about favoring some Wards over others -- he talks about making the city better for all of its residents. In this respect, I see him as more of a unifier than Gray. But the offense that I have taken is not really with Gray. It's with the poster who seems to think that all White people who speak unaccented English are benefiting from privilege they did not earn and did not deserve. But it doesn't really matter. Even if Gray is elected, he's not going to do anything different than Fenty is. Certainly not to the extent that our poster hopes he will. He's just implying that he will to try to get votes. No Mayor, once elected, is really going to want or try to redistribute wealth in the radical way she would have it. And even if he did, the City Council will not allow it. |
Anonymous
Well, intelligence is mainly the result of genetics, and to that extent it could be considered akin to luck. As to the rest, as described above, my family had to jump through far too many hoops to attribute their success to "coincidence" or "serendipity". Please. But yes, a high IQ is pretty much genetically determined, and is pretty much the result of pure luck. Sperm and egg. So what? Would our poster argue that people who have high IQs did not earn them, and their privilege they have earned in part as a result of having the advantage of high IQ should be stripped from them in order to make things more "fair"? Life is not fair. There's no denying that. But to try to make it so by means of the radical redistribution of wealth that our poster would like to see is simply not a realistic option. Beauty and athleticism and many other traits are largely determined by genetics and could give the person that inherits such traits an "unearned" advantage. That's life. You can't change the hand you're dealt. You can only chose how to play it. |
Anonymous
Was this quote reported anywhere? I can't find any corroberation of it. |
Anonymous
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It's clear that your family overcame some obstacles to get to where they are now. I never said they had a cakewalk. Some things worked against them, some in their favor. Religion, particularly in Europe during the time period they were there, worked horribly against them. That continued, to a lesser extent, in America. Other things worked in their favor, such as being white.
The fact is, your GRANDPARENTS overcoming adversity doesn't mean anything for you. You didn't overcome it. They did. You may have overcome other adversity, but not what they did, yet, again, you want to claim to be deserving of that work, work you didn't do. You did your own work, paying through college and such, and again, bravo to you. But do you think your situation would have been better or worse off if your family originated in Africa. You want to simplify privilege into an attack on whites. Something I have been careful not to do. Did I speak specifically about white privilege? Yes. But I also mentioned all the other types and can speak about those, as well. As for the contention that Gray attacked privilege, when he said no such thing, is nonsense. Saying, "I know he didn't say it, but I'm sure he MEANT it," is just unfair. If you are going to ascribe meaning to something that isn't there, how can we argue that? Gray made it clear he doesn't want to stop what exists. But he's not going to give MORE to an area that already has its fair share. Specifically in the quote provided he said he doesn't want to stop it, but he's not going to add to it. How does that equate to the trumped up fears being perpetuated here that he is going to come in and take everything away you've worked so hard for and earned? It doesn't. Because it's a BS argument. So, yea, you can share anecdotes about your family that demonstrate how some privilege you experience might be mitigated by a legacy of oppression. That is certainly the case for many folks and sounds absolutely the case for your grandparents. It still doesn't say anything about you. You didn't overcome the holocaust, you didn't face blatant anti-semitism in hiring, you did come from a family that was educated and fairly accomplished (again, through their own hard work, not your own). Now, maybe you should be entitled to enjoy the fruits of your ancestors' labor, but don't pretend for a second that YOU did the work. They did. You sat back and benefited after the fact. Read up on the subject. Read Peggy McIntosh or Tim Wise or any of the multitude of other authors commenting on the subject. Study critical race theory. You clearly have an overly simplified and distorted understanding of the theory of white privilege. Again, there is room to disagree on the strength of its impact and how different systems of privilege of oppression interact, but anyone denying that privilege, in all its forms, exists might as well deny the earth being round. And stop with the straw man arguments. Gray saying that he wants to help other wards is not a "radical redistribution of wealth". I'm not saying that either. You attack the most extreme possible representation of an argument to play into the scare tactics. No one is trying to take away what you have. Let me repeat: NO ONE IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY WHAT YOU HAVE. Relax, dude. No reason to be so threatened. You'll be okay. You'll still have everything you have now. You just might not keep getting ALL the hand-outs you've been benefiting from all along. But you'll survive. I mean, you're overcome SO much already, are you really going to let a mayor with disagreeable politics stop you now??? Also, I'm a 'he' not a 'she'. |
Anonymous
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I was there. I heard it. I wrote it down. Why would you expect it to be "reported" somewhere? It's not like he said anything so radical that it would make the front page of the Washington Post. What motive would I have to lie? Our radical-redistribution-of-wealth-time-for-others-to-get-theirs poster even tacitly admits that he did in fact, say this. Go back to the beginning of this thread, if you can stomach it.
He said it. And when he came to the part about your "children's educations" (voice laced with sarcasm) I felt a bit of lunch come into my mouth. Yeah, I care about the education of my children. Without apology. |
Anonymous
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http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/20061217.htm
From the New York Times Magazine a few years back. Interesting take on how privilege affects us all. |