Will Fenty win the DC mayoral primary against Gray?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was there. I heard it. I wrote it down. Why would you expect it to be "reported" somewhere? It's not like he said anything so radical that it would make the front page of the Washington Post. What motive would I have to lie? Our radical-redistribution-of-wealth-time-for-others-to-get-theirs poster even tacitly admits that he did in fact, say this. Go back to the beginning of this thread, if you can stomach it.

He said it. And when he came to the part about your "children's educations" (voice laced with sarcasm) I felt a bit of lunch come into my mouth.

Yeah, I care about the education of my children. Without apology.

I don't think that you have a motive to lie. But we're all human, and don't remember things perfectly.

Ms "radical-redistribution-of-wealth-time-for-others-to-get-theirs poster," were you there? Is this what you remember?

[Anonymous]

Oops, sorry, are you actually Mr "radical-redistribution-of-wealth-time-for-others-to-get-theirs poster"? I'm having a hard time keeping track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's clear that your family overcame some obstacles to get to where they are now. I never said they had a cakewalk. Some things worked against them, some in their favor. Religion, particularly in Europe during the time period they were there, worked horribly against them. That continued, to a lesser extent, in America. Other things worked in their favor, such as being white.

The fact is, your GRANDPARENTS overcoming adversity doesn't mean anything for you. You didn't overcome it. They did. You may have overcome other adversity, but not what they did, yet, again, you want to claim to be deserving of that work, work you didn't do. You did your own work, paying through college and such, and again, bravo to you.

But do you think your situation would have been better or worse off if your family originated in Africa.

You want to simplify privilege into an attack on whites. Something I have been careful not to do. Did I speak specifically about white privilege? Yes. But I also mentioned all the other types and can speak about those, as well.

As for the contention that Gray attacked privilege, when he said no such thing, is nonsense. Saying, "I know he didn't say it, but I'm sure he MEANT it," is just unfair. If you are going to ascribe meaning to something that isn't there, how can we argue that?

Gray made it clear he doesn't want to stop what exists. But he's not going to give MORE to an area that already has its fair share. Specifically in the quote provided he said he doesn't want to stop it, but he's not going to add to it. How does that equate to the trumped up fears being perpetuated here that he is going to come in and take everything away you've worked so hard for and earned? It doesn't. Because it's a BS argument.

So, yea, you can share anecdotes about your family that demonstrate how some privilege you experience might be mitigated by a legacy of oppression. That is certainly the case for many folks and sounds absolutely the case for your grandparents. It still doesn't say anything about you. You didn't overcome the holocaust, you didn't face blatant anti-semitism in hiring, you did come from a family that was educated and fairly accomplished (again, through their own hard work, not your own). Now, maybe you should be entitled to enjoy the fruits of your ancestors' labor, but don't pretend for a second that YOU did the work. They did. You sat back and benefited after the fact.

Read up on the subject. Read Peggy McIntosh or Tim Wise or any of the multitude of other authors commenting on the subject. Study critical race theory. You clearly have an overly simplified and distorted understanding of the theory of white privilege. Again, there is room to disagree on the strength of its impact and how different systems of privilege of oppression interact, but anyone denying that privilege, in all its forms, exists might as well deny the earth being round.

And stop with the straw man arguments. Gray saying that he wants to help other wards is not a "radical redistribution of wealth". I'm not saying that either. You attack the most extreme possible representation of an argument to play into the scare tactics. No one is trying to take away what you have. Let me repeat: NO ONE IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY WHAT YOU HAVE. Relax, dude. No reason to be so threatened. You'll be okay. You'll still have everything you have now. You just might not keep getting ALL the hand-outs you've been benefiting from all along. But you'll survive. I mean, you're overcome SO much already, are you really going to let a mayor with disagreeable politics stop you now???

Also, I'm a 'he' not a 'she'.

No. You've misrepresented me on a number of counts. I stated that my own parents grew up in a working class family. I do not mean middle class. I mean working class. I mentioned two specific examples of discrimination my father faced. So we're not really talking about "my ancestors" here. Go back two generations, and my family is in a concentration camp. Go back one generation, and my father is being told that, despite his qualification, no Jews are wanted at the moment.

The burden is on you to show that, in my particular situation, I benefited from a foundation of systemic, unearned privilege. So where is it? Where is the foundation for my particular systemic, unearned privilege? It doesn't exist. You can't point to a single thing to butress your contention. Did I benefit from having parents that, through hard work, intelligence and grit, managed to succeed in society? Sure. That's what all good parents are supposed to do for their kids -- help them. And that is every child's birthright -- to have their parents help them if they can. That is not a foundation of systemic privilege based on race. But you cannot point to any foundation of privilege that attibuted to my success. My parents did not achieve their success based on a foundation of systemic privilege. You can keep saying that they did, but that doesn't make it so.

Also, please don't refer to massive genocide as an "obstacle". And please don't refer to my Grandfather's experience in a Nazi concentration camp, coupled with the extermination of all of his friends and family, as an "anecdote". It's very offensive. If say, you shared on this board that your Grandfather had been bound and brought to this country against his will; made a slave and subjected to brutal treatment, and I said that your family had overcome an "obstacle" and referred to your family's experience with enslavement as an "anecdote", I think you might be offended.

Again -- you made a blatant proposition: All Whites who speak unaccented English benefit from a foundation of systemic, unearned privilege. You said "all" Whites. Fine. Where is my family's foundation of systemic, unearned privilege? Again, the burden is on you.

[Anonymous]

And yes, you did pay lip-service to other groups that are privileged. You basically said that any group can be privileged. But you only pointed to whites as enjoying a form of systemic, unearned privilege. Unless I misunderstood you. In which case, I would like some examples, please. Specifically as to gays. You referenced that gays are privileged in some demographics. Is it your contention that they, too, benefit from a foundation of unearned privilege? Really? Examples, please. Because I don't see it. I think gays have been kicked around pretty hard. Some have succeeded. Some are privileged. But where's the foundation for systemic, unearned privilege as it relates to gays?

You also mentioned that Blacks are sometimes privileged in certain contexts (though you didn't elaborate). Are Blacks just privileged, or do they too benefit from a foundation of systemic, unearned privilege?

If all of the groups you mentioned benefit from a foundation of systemic, unearned privilege, then it seems to me it's all a wash. But that's not really what you're saying, is it? No, not at all.

[Anonymous]

And could you please stop using the phrase "straw man arguments" and "utter nonsense" over and over and over again? Surely someone as well-read and all-wise as you should be able to sprinkle their vocabulary up a little bit. I mean, really. Straw man, straw man, utter nonsense, utter nonsense . . . it's getting old.

Also -- things like "you might as well say the world is not round" or "you might as well say red is blue" and all the rest of you "might as well say" is getting tiresome. Let's just stick to what I say, and we'll be good.

[Anonymous]

Oi vei.

First off, learn what the word "anecdote" means. It is in no way offensive.

And I'm not going to play the "oppression olympics" game, arguing which obstacles (which is exactly what genocide, the holocaust, slavery, etc. were) are worse. So stop baiting.

You want me to prove white privilege? It's nearly impossible in this context. Not impossible inherently. But impossible in this context. It would be like me asking you to prove gravity existed while I maintained a position that it was God who made things fall to earth.

Have people ever looked at you and assumed you were only hired or accepted to a school because of affirmative action? Were you ever followed around a store by security because of the color of your skin? Ever pulled over for Driving While Black? When you fail, are your struggles extrapolated to your group as a whole? Is your resume over glossed over because you have an ethnic name? Were you ever denied a home loan simply because you were black? If you ever bought a home, were there neighborhoods a realtor wouldn't show you because of the color of your skin? If you ever got into a fight as a kid, or some minor legal trouble, were you seen as "kids being kids" or as troubled youth?

By the way, I'm also white, so don't assume that just because I recognize and am opposed to privilege, I'm black, which you seemed to do.

Honestly, deny privilege all you want. I'll just lump you in with the birthers and flat earthers as people determined to deny reality. Good luck with that.

I'm done. As a previous poster said, you don't want to have an intellectual discussion about this. You first A) tried to be snarky and B) tried to make an appeal to emotion. You don't want to look beyond your own circumstances to understand this on a macro level. That's cool. You've got lots of learning to do. Start with looking outside yourself. Otherwise, continue shouting into your echo chamber. We probably won't see a sizable change in privilege in your life time, so you'll be fine. But, eventually, the world will change and we will ALL be better for it. And we will look back at people like you as nonsensical. Way to be on the winning team!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And could you please stop using the phrase "straw man arguments" and "utter nonsense" over and over and over again? Surely someone as well-read and all-wise as you should be able to sprinkle their vocabulary up a little bit. I mean, really. Straw man, straw man, utter nonsense, utter nonsense . . . it's getting old.

Also -- things like "you might as well say the world is not round" or "you might as well say red is blue" and all the rest of you "might as well say" is getting tiresome. Let's just stick to what I say, and we'll be good.

Do you know what a straw man is? It's the easiest way to point out how blatantly intellectually dishonest you are and why I can no longer continue this conversation.

And now arguing that my STYLE is a problem... well, you've reached a new low. Soon you'll be saying I'm wrong because I may have a typo somewhere.

Bah. You're not worth my time. Enjoy your privilege while it lasts.

[Anonymous]

I know what the word anecdote means. The word itself is not offensive. The context in which you used it is.

And um, we actually do have proof that gravity exists. Extensive proof. Or did you miss that in high school because you were so immersed in radical race theory?

You've admitted that you can't point to any systemic foundation of unearned privilege in my family. If it exists, you should be able to point to something to show it. But you can't.

And I'm still waiting to hear about gays and Blacks and your views as to their privileges.

We can't prove that gravity exists. Wow. You are a very smart man. We should all defer to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And could you please stop using the phrase "straw man arguments" and "utter nonsense" over and over and over again? Surely someone as well-read and all-wise as you should be able to sprinkle their vocabulary up a little bit. I mean, really. Straw man, straw man, utter nonsense, utter nonsense . . . it's getting old.

Also -- things like "you might as well say the world is not round" or "you might as well say red is blue" and all the rest of you "might as well say" is getting tiresome. Let's just stick to what I say, and we'll be good.

Do you know what a straw man is? It's the easiest way to point out how blatantly intellectually dishonest you are and why I can no longer continue this conversation.

And now arguing that my STYLE is a problem... well, you've reached a new low. Soon you'll be saying I'm wrong because I may have a typo somewhere.

Bah. You're not worth my time. Enjoy your privilege while it lasts.

I was merely pointing out that you sound trite and need not rely so heavily on the same phrases to make your point. And I'm not worth your time? I'm not the one who announced to this forum that there's no way to prove that gravity exists.

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry. I want to make sure I got you right. You said:

It would be like me asking you to prove gravity existed while I maintained a position that it was God who made things fall to earth.

Hmmmm. So you didn't actually say that there's no way to prove that gravity exists. But lets look at what you did say. If you were to maintain that it was God who made things fall to earth, I would probably refer to Newton, and the argument would be very easy for me to win. Except wait -- Newton was White. I guess his opinion shouldn't count. It's the result of his unearned privilege.

So, I'll challenge you again: show me how I benefitted from a foundation of systemic, unearned privilege. And having your parents look out for you? Doesn't cut it.

[Anonymous]

Also, since one is stating the fact about massive genocide as it relates to your family "an appeal to emotion"? When people talk about slavery and segregation and insist that we're still in the midst of that legacy despite the efforts of the government to bend over backwards to correct these wrongs, is that "an appeal to emotion"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry. I want to make sure I got you right. You said:

It would be like me asking you to prove gravity existed while I maintained a position that it was God who made things fall to earth.

Hmmmm. So you didn't actually say that there's no way to prove that gravity exists. But lets look at what you did say. If you were to maintain that it was God who made things fall to earth, I would probably refer to Newton, and the argument would be very easy for me to win. Except wait -- Newton was White. I guess his opinion shouldn't count. It's the result of his unearned privilege.

Actually, Newton's theory of gravity was superceded by general relativity, but even general relativity's understanding of gravity conflicts with some quantum mechanics. Gravity is a really tricky business that physicists are still trying to figure out.

Given the trouble you're having understanding what your advisary is saying, I'm starting to doubt that you accurately remember what Mr. Gray said.

Good luck with that reflux problem of yours.

[Anonymous]

Who can argue with this? That's what Fenty's always looking at: what does the community want, and how can I get it done?

And then he proceeds.

[Anonymous]

Fenty's first ad:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/debonis/2010/07/fenty_debuts_tv_ads_touts_dete.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who can argue with this? That's what Fenty's always looking at: what does the community want, and how can I get it done?

And then he proceeds.

I have no quarrel with what he said, but I think you overplay it. He said that he'd prefer that Congress let us decide what to do with our money, but so would every DC politician. He also explained why he signed the medical marijuana law, but that law was passed by the Council under Chair Vince Gray, who also sponsored the bill. So, I have no quarrel with Fenty here, but I'd call it at best a stand-off between him and Gray.