s/o - Cheating and Checking Diversity boxes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the thread about cheating via extended time, some mentioned that white/Asian students are being coached to check the box that they are black or Hispanic.

Is this really what our college application system has become? I cannot imagine anyone that I know doing this. And doesn’t the high school guidance counselor have to review the application and verify information anyway?

Anyone can identify as Black or Hispanic. It is just as wrong to question someone’s chosen and preferred race as it is to question someone’s chosen and preferred gender.

[Anonymous]

Context matters.

In the college application context, schools are trying to find Latinos who have been historically frozen out from higher education in an attempt to address their low representation among the college-educated. That's their motivation for wanting to know your race/ethnicity. And they (of the schools that care) want to create a critical mass of Latino students who can turn to one another for social support on campus. The last thing you want is for a kid to be the only one of their type on campus. Separately, they're interested in increasing the number of students enrolled who are the first in their families to go to a 4-yr college. Given that these are both institutional priorities for most schools, students who can check both of those boxes will be of greatest interest to them.

Most selective colleges will have AOs who are familiar with the socioeconomics of different schools within their territory, so finding students from the lower income neighborhoods who indicate that they are Latino/Hispanic/Mexican American/Chicano will be prioritized over finding kids from UMC families who happen to have a grandfather from Peru. In UMC neighborhoods, they'll be most interested in those applicants who themselves, as kids, identify as Latino/Hispanic/Boriqua and who demonstrate in a variety of ways across their application materials that they will contribute something to the Latino community on their college campus. It's like playing that game "tell me you're Latino without telling me that you're Latino." If your kid can't do that and you live in NW DC or Fairfax, don't bother marking the box.

Marking the box might get your kid's application a second look when it otherwise would have gone into the rejection pile. But it won't ever be enough to get them into the accept pile without a lot of other things that make them stand out. At best, it might get your kid into the Latino pool, in which case they then have to be among the best in that group. And they will almost certainly have an AO who is an expert in recruitment of Latino students and/or a Latino themself. That person will be reading your kid's application closely and they will spot a poser in less than 2 minutes with their application.

My own kid (UMC, very rigorous DMV high school and courses and above average ECs) didn't get into most of the more selective schools. They speak Spanish as a native, studied it all through school, have Spanish names, etc... Marking the box definitely does not get you a free pass. If they'd attended school in a low-income neighborhood and had parents who didn't attend college, they'd almost certainly have done even better in the admissions process. But they ended up in a great place for them with merit aid, so all is good. As far as I'm concerned (I was a first-gen Latino) that is how it should work.

(I'm Latino and graduated from highly selective universities.)

[Anonymous]

Net: if you're white, don't check a URM race to cheat.

Cheating happens by rich whites sometimes ( ie Varsity Blues, gaming the SAT/ACT testing accomodations), but that doesn't mean YOU have to do it.

[Anonymous]

"But how would that conversation go? The school says, "I see you've checked "mixed race." Are you sure you're really mixed race, because you don't appear to be?" Where in your ancestry did races mix?""

I'm PP. Applicants should assume that the AO reading their application is asking this question and the student should proactively answer it. If you can't "show and not just tell" about what makes you both races/ethnicities, then don't bother marking that box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Net: if you're white, don't check a URM race to cheat.

Cheating happens by rich whites sometimes ( ie Varsity Blues, gaming the SAT/ACT testing accomodations), but that doesn't mean YOU have to do it.

Again, for slow learners: many Hispanics are white. Also many Arabs. Net: don't confuse skin color with being a minority or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this is a widespread problem it would be concentrated in the top 30 or so competitive schools. This would mean that the diversity stats these schools report are BS, correct?

Absolutely! The diversity reports for those schools are BS! My DD’s white friend put down native american for race/ethnicity and was accepted to an Ivy. She was not an outstanding/stellar student in any way, and didn’t have any awards or national level recognition either for ECs. In fact she barely had any ECs and probably lied about those too. But hey that all got her into an Ivy and now that Ivy has a Native American student .. yay!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this is a widespread problem it would be concentrated in the top 30 or so competitive schools. This would mean that the diversity stats these schools report are BS, correct?

Absolutely! The diversity reports for those schools are BS! My DD’s white friend put down native american for race/ethnicity and was accepted to an Ivy. She was not an outstanding/stellar student in any way, and didn’t have any awards or national level recognition either for ECs. In fact she barely had any ECs and probably lied about those too. But hey that all got her into an Ivy and now that Ivy has a Native American student .. yay!

r/thathappened

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this is a widespread problem it would be concentrated in the top 30 or so competitive schools. This would mean that the diversity stats these schools report are BS, correct?

Absolutely! The diversity reports for those schools are BS! My DD’s white friend put down native american for race/ethnicity and was accepted to an Ivy. She was not an outstanding/stellar student in any way, and didn’t have any awards or national level recognition either for ECs. In fact she barely had any ECs and probably lied about those too. But hey that all got her into an Ivy and now that Ivy has a Native American student .. yay!

Is her last name Warren by any chance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the thread about cheating via extended time, some mentioned that white/Asian students are being coached to check the box that they are black or Hispanic.

Is this really what our college application system has become? I cannot imagine anyone that I know doing this. And doesn’t the high school guidance counselor have to review the application and verify information anyway?

I can see White kids being able to get away with this..

An East Asian first gen kid whose parents chose to change their name and use an American-generic name for their kid may be able to get away with this. However, the last name would be a dead giveaway. Not going to work for South Asians. Most Asians, the vast majority, are too proud of their heritage for BS of this kind. I call BS on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"But how would that conversation go? The school says, "I see you've checked "mixed race." Are you sure you're really mixed race, because you don't appear to be?" Where in your ancestry did races mix?""

I'm PP. Applicants should assume that the AO reading their application is asking this question and the student should proactively answer it. If you can't "show and not just tell" about what makes you both races/ethnicities, then don't bother marking that box.

LOL. AO's are too dumb and their management is too hung up on woke nonsense to ask these type of questions without really caring about minorities. They'll just count you in and check the woke box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this is a widespread problem it would be concentrated in the top 30 or so competitive schools. This would mean that the diversity stats these schools report are BS, correct?

Absolutely! The diversity reports for those schools are BS! My DD’s white friend put down native american for race/ethnicity and was accepted to an Ivy. She was not an outstanding/stellar student in any way, and didn’t have any awards or national level recognition either for ECs. In fact she barely had any ECs and probably lied about those too. But hey that all got her into an Ivy and now that Ivy has a Native American student .. yay!

Let's hope she doesn't go into a field they do background checks. This stuff comes back to haunt people. She better never run for Office or an appointed position or plan to be on the Supreme Court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Context matters.

In the college application context, schools are trying to find Latinos who have been historically frozen out from higher education in an attempt to address their low representation among the college-educated. That's their motivation for wanting to know your race/ethnicity. And they (of the schools that care) want to create a critical mass of Latino students who can turn to one another for social support on campus. The last thing you want is for a kid to be the only one of their type on campus. Separately, they're interested in increasing the number of students enrolled who are the first in their families to go to a 4-yr college. Given that these are both institutional priorities for most schools, students who can check both of those boxes will be of greatest interest to them.

Most selective colleges will have AOs who are familiar with the socioeconomics of different schools within their territory, so finding students from the lower income neighborhoods who indicate that they are Latino/Hispanic/Mexican American/Chicano will be prioritized over finding kids from UMC families who happen to have a grandfather from Peru. In UMC neighborhoods, they'll be most interested in those applicants who themselves, as kids, identify as Latino/Hispanic/Boriqua and who demonstrate in a variety of ways across their application materials that they will contribute something to the Latino community on their college campus. It's like playing that game "tell me you're Latino without telling me that you're Latino." If your kid can't do that and you live in NW DC or Fairfax, don't bother marking the box.

Marking the box might get your kid's application a second look when it otherwise would have gone into the rejection pile. But it won't ever be enough to get them into the accept pile without a lot of other things that make them stand out. At best, it might get your kid into the Latino pool, in which case they then have to be among the best in that group. And they will almost certainly have an AO who is an expert in recruitment of Latino students and/or a Latino themself. That person will be reading your kid's application closely and they will spot a poser in less than 2 minutes with their application.

My own kid (UMC, very rigorous DMV high school and courses and above average ECs) didn't get into most of the more selective schools. They speak Spanish as a native, studied it all through school, have Spanish names, etc... Marking the box definitely does not get you a free pass. If they'd attended school in a low-income neighborhood and had parents who didn't attend college, they'd almost certainly have done even better in the admissions process. But they ended up in a great place for them with merit aid, so all is good. As far as I'm concerned (I was a first-gen Latino) that is how it should work.

(I'm Latino and graduated from highly selective universities.)

OMG. You are so naïve. They don't care about that. They care about the numbers for their admissions data and so they can tout it on websites and in USNWR. All the better if they get one that has the support at home and came from good schools so they don't run into problems with the curriculum. Look at who gets in from wealthy schools and school districts. If you have two kids of the same socioeconomic background, same high school, virtually same grades/ECS/scores, they will take the minority. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the thread about cheating via extended time, some mentioned that white/Asian students are being coached to check the box that they are black or Hispanic.

Is this really what our college application system has become? I cannot imagine anyone that I know doing this. And doesn’t the high school guidance counselor have to review the application and verify information anyway?

I can see White kids being able to get away with this..

An East Asian first gen kid whose parents chose to change their name and use an American-generic name for their kid may be able to get away with this. However, the last name would be a dead giveaway. Not going to work for South Asians. Most Asians, the vast majority, are too proud of their heritage for BS of this kind. I call BS on this.

What would an East Asian put? Hispanic? Native American?

Probably easier for South Asians like Filipinos put Hispanic.

[Anonymous]

Wow, what a lesson to teach your kids. Take a system that is intended to help kids from less privileged backgrounds and use it to help your over-privileged self get in.

And yes, I know that in practice race is an imperfect proxy for who has been historically underrepresented/frozen out. But you are responsible for your own integrity.

[Anonymous]

How about everyone just answers truthfully or declines to answer? All the cheaters and schemers here are atrocious.

This person who is floating the idea that you can just elect to be a race is full of crap. Also, don't assume someone was a successful cheater because they don't look the part. Gene expression doesn't always work the way you think it will, especially in someone with multiple races in their genetic makeup.

Just be honest yourself. That's what we should all be doing.