Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always thought that there is a point when people become unconscious and can't fight back. Isn't that when you stop choking them?

With a blood choke, you can be in a world of hurt even before you go unconscious. It's deceptive because you are doing damage but the person is not limp. Penny likely had very limited training when it comes to chokes so it's hard to hold him to a very high standard, or at least that is what the jury was probably thinking.

Agree. It’s not like he did these every day. He probably had a handful of hand to hand combat training sessions several yrs ago, and that is the extent of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

I'm not sure if being a lawyer is very relevant here. Having knowledge about BJJ is critical to determining if Neely was a threat. At the very least, you need to learn quite a bit before you can come to any reasonable determination whether the force used was appropriate.

It’s relevant because self-defense is an actual legal concept with specific elements, and in my view (clearly also in the jury’s view) Penny’s conduct satisfied those elements. In a situation like that, where you need to act within seconds to neutralize what appears to be a serious, imminent, and potentially lethal threat to yourself and others, and as a PP mentioned above, your body is flooded with adrenaline (i.e., exactly the circumstances necessitating self-defense), you’re not in a position in that split second to weigh all the information and make the most perfect judgment of the exact amount of force needed to incapacitate the person. Distinguish this from a case like the murder of Breona Taylor, which was clearly an unjustified and unreasonable use of force.

Here, Penny was very obviously not acting maliciously. There was a credible and immediate threat to everyone’s safety, he was acting in the defense of himself and others, and he acted to incapacitate Neely, which had the unfortunate result that he died. And “reasonable use of force” is something that’s easy to calculate after the fact, harder in the moment. Legally justified self defense doesn’t exclude the possibility that the aggressor dies. Sometimes it happens, and it happened here. There really shouldn’t have been charges at all.

Maybe you are a new lawyer? I say this because many people who have zero experience outside of academia don't fully grasp that there is a big difference between theory and real life. They also think they know more than they actually know. You read about a concept and are attempting to apply it to a scenario, but it doesn't really fit.

PP again. No, I’m not a new lawyer. My assessment, which I discussed in the quoted post, is that Penny’s actions were legally justified self-defense, and that on these facts, I would not bring criminal charges of any kind against Penny if I were a prosecutor. And as a NYC taxpayer, I think doing so was a waste of resources and a bad decision by Bragg’s office. Obviously reasonable people can and do disagree on the law, so feel free. But I am glad the jury agreed with me! I think it’s a just outcome and the best one for New Yorkers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

People on K2 can go into cardiac arrest easily. I don’t know the George Floyd case as well but that’s what killed this addict. He was trippin and he went into cardiac arrest when he was restrained. It was in the testimony by the medical examiner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

[Anonymous]

Good, he did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

I'm not sure if being a lawyer is very relevant here. Having knowledge about BJJ is critical to determining if Neely was a threat. At the very least, you need to learn quite a bit before you can come to any reasonable determination whether the force used was appropriate.

It’s relevant because self-defense is an actual legal concept with specific elements, and in my view (clearly also in the jury’s view) Penny’s conduct satisfied those elements. In a situation like that, where you need to act within seconds to neutralize what appears to be a serious, imminent, and potentially lethal threat to yourself and others, and as a PP mentioned above, your body is flooded with adrenaline (i.e., exactly the circumstances necessitating self-defense), you’re not in a position in that split second to weigh all the information and make the most perfect judgment of the exact amount of force needed to incapacitate the person. Distinguish this from a case like the murder of Breona Taylor, which was clearly an unjustified and unreasonable use of force.

Here, Penny was very obviously not acting maliciously. There was a credible and immediate threat to everyone’s safety, he was acting in the defense of himself and others, and he acted to incapacitate Neely, which had the unfortunate result that he died. And “reasonable use of force” is something that’s easy to calculate after the fact, harder in the moment. Legally justified self defense doesn’t exclude the possibility that the aggressor dies. Sometimes it happens, and it happened here. There really shouldn’t have been charges at all.

Maybe you are a new lawyer? I say this because many people who have zero experience outside of academia don't fully grasp that there is a big difference between theory and real life. They also think they know more than they actually know. You read about a concept and are attempting to apply it to a scenario, but it doesn't really fit.

… except the jury acquitted so obviously PP is correct

Juries are highly unpredictable, so you really haven't proven or disproven anything

I don’t think there was much unpredictability about this jury. Apparently multiple train passengers testified that they had never been so terrified.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

+1 Mr. Neely, and others with similar mental health issues, need longterm in-patient hospitalization or be required to live in a group home and take their medication.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Justice was served.

Except that this poor man was put through a totally unnecessary and unjustified trial.

It is about time the authorities started taking the security of the public as seriously as they take the rights of violent criminals.

Agree. Why should bystanders have to step in to ward off violent psychopaths? There needs to be a better way. We need more enforcement, tougher penalties, and hospitals for mentally ill.

People should be safe going about their business. It was ridiculous this guy was even charged.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

No this can be true. DCUM tells me nothing sketchy ever happens on the Metro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

People on K2 can go into cardiac arrest easily. I don’t know the George Floyd case as well but that’s what killed this addict. He was trippin and he went into cardiac arrest when he was restrained. It was in the testimony by the medical examiner.

Yeppers, he was obviously going to die anyway that day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

I bet you loved what happened to ol George Floyd too.

[Anonymous]

I think Daniel Penny should sue NYC and the DA office civilly for failing to do their job and locking up Neely for good after any one of his 40+ offenses putting him in the position that he needed to even come across Neely's path.

I'm sure Penny is traumatized. It will affect him for the rest of his life emotionally and financially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

I'm not sure if being a lawyer is very relevant here. Having knowledge about BJJ is critical to determining if Neely was a threat. At the very least, you need to learn quite a bit before you can come to any reasonable determination whether the force used was appropriate.

It’s relevant because self-defense is an actual legal concept with specific elements, and in my view (clearly also in the jury’s view) Penny’s conduct satisfied those elements. In a situation like that, where you need to act within seconds to neutralize what appears to be a serious, imminent, and potentially lethal threat to yourself and others, and as a PP mentioned above, your body is flooded with adrenaline (i.e., exactly the circumstances necessitating self-defense), you’re not in a position in that split second to weigh all the information and make the most perfect judgment of the exact amount of force needed to incapacitate the person. Distinguish this from a case like the murder of Breona Taylor, which was clearly an unjustified and unreasonable use of force.

Here, Penny was very obviously not acting maliciously. There was a credible and immediate threat to everyone’s safety, he was acting in the defense of himself and others, and he acted to incapacitate Neely, which had the unfortunate result that he died. And “reasonable use of force” is something that’s easy to calculate after the fact, harder in the moment. Legally justified self defense doesn’t exclude the possibility that the aggressor dies. Sometimes it happens, and it happened here. There really shouldn’t have been charges at all.

Maybe you are a new lawyer? I say this because many people who have zero experience outside of academia don't fully grasp that there is a big difference between theory and real life. They also think they know more than they actually know. You read about a concept and are attempting to apply it to a scenario, but it doesn't really fit.

… except the jury acquitted so obviously PP is correct

OJ was also acquitted, but everyone basically acknowledges he killed his wife. The outcome of a trial and the truth are not the same thing at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

Huh? Are you slow?