Sexless-ness is an acceptable negative outcome from marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we have to define “normal” or “healthy” sexuality by what MEN want or expect? Women’s sexuality is different than men’s. Not abnormal, not unhealthy. Different. And that’s okay. As stated by a PP, loving couples meet in the middle. Which, yes, likely means the man has sex less likely than he’d prefer. Don’t like it, date other men.

Or don't expect monogamy if you are a low drive woman paired with a normal libido man.

Oh please. Don't get married if you want an exciting sex life. Seriously, it's ok that be single. Why do you think the concept of the bachelor party exists? A recognition that marital sex is going to suck at some point compared to being single.

[Anonymous]

Again, why is the man’s drive “normal” and the woman’s is “low?” Maybe she’s the normal one and he’s the one with a pathology. Who says normal has to be defined by what men want?

Loving couples meet in the middle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we have to define “normal” or “healthy” sexuality by what MEN want or expect? Women’s sexuality is different than men’s. Not abnormal, not unhealthy. Different. And that’s okay. As stated by a PP, loving couples meet in the middle. Which, yes, likely means the man has sex less likely than he’d prefer. Don’t like it, date other men.

Or don't expect monogamy if you are a low drive woman paired with a normal libido man.

Oh please. Don't get married if you want an exciting sex life. Seriously, it's ok that be single. Why do you think the concept of the bachelor party exists? A recognition that marital sex is going to suck at some point compared to being single.

But modern marriage is just a platonic sexless partnership, right? So dating other women should be expected. What’s the big deal anyway? Sex isn’t important to a marriage ... because otherwise would you be having it? Seriously it’s ok not to be monogamous with a spouse who doesn’t even want much sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we have to define “normal” or “healthy” sexuality by what MEN want or expect? Women’s sexuality is different than men’s. Not abnormal, not unhealthy. Different. And that’s okay. As stated by a PP, loving couples meet in the middle. Which, yes, likely means the man has sex less likely than he’d prefer. Don’t like it, date other men.

Or don't expect monogamy if you are a low drive woman paired with a normal libido man.

Oh please. Don't get married if you want an exciting sex life. Seriously, it's ok that be single. Why do you think the concept of the bachelor party exists? A recognition that marital sex is going to suck at some point compared to being single.

But modern marriage is just a platonic sexless partnership, right? So dating other women should be expected. What’s the big deal anyway? Sex isn’t important to a marriage ... because otherwise would you be having it? Seriously it’s ok not to be monogamous with a spouse who doesn’t even want much sex.

PP you are responding to, I am not arguing with you about the ethics of cheating. It's common for a reason, cheat, don't cheat, no one cares. I was simply pointing out the men on here who whine about their wives only wanting it once a week. News flash, she wants it less than that, and she is already compromising.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^stop with the alarmist scare tactics intended to pressure women into panic sex, creep.

The fact is most modern marriages, particularly among UMC and UC families, are not for love between two people anyway. They are essentially a structure intended to optimize the raising of children. So most people arent getting married because they are in some Romeo and Juliet mindset- they get married because they realize the person has desirable genes and a good disposition to be a good parent. So it would be ludicrous to get divorced when "the love is over". That's like quitting a job because you got bored or tired. Stupid and not considering of the long game

Where did I pressure women to have panic sex? Dead wrong! My only statement directed at wives who don't want sex is to get divorced. So you are now going to disagree with me on that? Really?

If you want to make the case that a sexless platonic marriage should continue, well guess what I agree! It make practical sense, especially with kids. Just agree with me that platonic room mates have no expectation of fidelity, and I think we are all square.

I dont agree. That wouldn't be a marriage. We're not animals, and we shouldn't be chained to our basest instincts. As an adult, you should have the self control to last through periods of "I'm not having sex when I want it!" there are plenty of dissatisfactions people have during a marriage, and you have to deal with it as an adult. Trying to pressure a person into sex acts they dont want is never okay, and is very regressive

A wife is "unsafe" (to the point of not wanting sex).. and you are telling this unsafe wife NOT to divorce? You want this unsafe wife to stay married, not have sex, AND expect her husbands to remain "faithful". Sorry that does not work. You cannot pick and choose the parts of a "marriage" you want to uphold.

I will go along with your plan that marriage need not be true-love-with-benefits ONLY IF you agree this relationship cannot be a monogamous one.

It does work. You are not the judge nor the jury on relationships. What has worked or not worked in your marriage is largely irrelevant, other than explaining your indignance. What you will "go along with" doesn't matter to a single soul on this planet other than perhaps your wife who I assume has already cut you off

You seem incapable of making any logical argument.
1) I repeatedly tell wives who don't want sex to NOT have sex... yet you keep accusing me of the opposite
2) You claim wives don't want sex because they feel unsafe and their husbands are lazy ass entitled losers... yet you protest my guidance to divorce that unsafe lazy ass loser husband
3) You happily redefine marriage not as "lovers" but as a practical structure to raise kids.... yet you screech about "sanctity of MARRIAGE" when I essentially agree with everything you said MINUS exclusivity
4) You tell one side to "just deal with dissatisfaction in a sexless marriage" yet call me indignant to ask the wife to "just deal with non-monogamy"

1) The "either have sex or I'll leave/have an affair" thing is clearly a manipulation tactic. Sorry, you're not fooling anyone.
2) Wives don't want sex for a variety of reasons. Doesn't really matter why.
3) Yep... and lots of experts have agreed with me. Welcome to the modern era. And there's also a long history of this attitude throughout the centuries.
4) Yes... because monogamy is considered an integral part of marriage. Stepping outside of the marriage bonds transforms it into something else. Whereas sexlessness is considered par for the course in most marriages (and in fact widely jokes about/acknowledged)

Sorry no one will sleep with you. But arguing on DCUM wont make your sad life any happier.

I can tell you that 0% of men in this world agree with your absurdly hypocritical definition of the SaNcTiTy oF mOdErN MaRrIaGe.
And I think you are irresponsibly dangerous telling unsafe wives to remain married.
My sex life is quite satisfying, thank you for your concern, and have a great day.

Oh, suddenly Mr. Logical isn't doing the bullet points anymore, and instead is reverting to Gen Z twitter meme-speak. Interesting. Wonder why that is

It's "dangerous" to tell wives to stay married now... more absurd alarmist nonsense from you. I dont think it's a particularly effective argumentation tactic, as no one is going to believe these women are "dangerous" to anyone whatsoever, but hey... you do you.

Ok since you want to persist with a logical discussion let's go:

1) There is zero manipulation telling somebody (who has themselves already redefined the marriage) your honest requirements to stay "together", allowing them the freedom to make an informed choice to stay (accepting the terms) or end it.
2) The PP where I first replied made a solid argument about "wives don't want sex because they feel unsafe and he is a useless father/husband" and I agreed 100% with all of it... the only sane conclusion is to DIVORCE this unsafe loser !!
3) Show citations of experts who describe your version of modern marriage as sexless room mates .... who must uphold a pledge of fidelity (meaning celibacy)
4) Wait so it's not OK to redefine the modern marriage? We need to uphold the marital traditions? Which ones must be upheld, which can be discarded?

1) There is manipulation when you're trying to force someone into behavior they don't want to engage in, especially something as personal as sex. Sexual coercion is not okay, whether it's taking place during a marriage or not. Again, the "Do what I want or I'm taking my toys home" thing is clearly a manipulation tactic and very obvious at that
2) Agreed that all DWs should divorce the plethora of loser DHs in this world- it's probably why women file for 70% of divorces. However, there can be plenty of reasons why women dont want to have sex, including feeling unsafe emotionally, but not unsafe to a level that would necessitate a divorce. Either way, it doesn't really matter.. her reasons for not having sex are valid, whatever they are. It's all okay.
3) https://qz.com/880084/love-based-marriage-is-not-the-best-model-for-raising-children/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/contemplating-divorce/201601/you-divorce-why-not-try-parenting-marriage
4) No one is redefining he modern marriage... as I said, sexlessness and prioritization of children in marriage has been accepted for a long, long, long, long time. Expectation of non-monogomy never has. Nor has expectation of constant sex, really. That's some new Playboy fantasy modern, coddled men have adapted for themselves.

1) For the 100th time I am NOT asking any wife to have unwanted sex!!! Nor am I saying the wife must accept open marriage terms. She may freely decide to exit the marriage.
2) Good to hear: she should divorce. But if she doesn't divorce, it means she accepts the redefined definition of marriage (the one without any fidelity clause).
3) Your citations literally prove MY point! Here is a direct quote: "Tina’s only request was that he did not bring women home to the house"
4) Are we (finally) agreeing then that modern sexless marriage cannot expect monogamy?

New pp and DW here who has been on both side of the sexless equation (been the one not into sex In first relationship, my DH is now the low libido one). I fully agree with you. Your logic make perfect sense. No one should be forced to have sex but no one is forced to stay in a sexless marriage and accept celibacy.

My first partner ended up cheating on me and leaving me because I refused him the level of intimacy he wanted. He felt completely unloved and uncared for. I basically traumatized him so much that from there on he has refused to enter any relationship that was not ok with open marriage concept. Because he realized his sex drive was too high and it made him too unhappy to have sex once a month. And I really get it. We are great friends now and I really don’t feel mad at him anymore for cheating. I can understand why he searched for love somewhere else.

Now, karma... I am the one in a relationship without enough intimacy, I would love once or twice a month, my DH ? Never I guess... he assures me he loves me. I think that if he cannot love me more, if he has no interest in having sex with me, he should free me. Either an open relationship or divorce. I am now saying goodbye to sex and intimacy at 39 yo, life is too short

[Anonymous]

New pp and DW here who has been on both side of the sexless equation (been the one not into sex In first relationship, my DH is now the low libido one). I fully agree with you. Your logic make perfect sense. No one should be forced to have sex but no one is forced to stay in a sexless marriage and accept celibacy.

My first partner ended up cheating on me and leaving me because I refused him the level of intimacy he wanted. He felt completely unloved and uncared for. I basically traumatized him so much that from there on he has refused to enter any relationship that was not ok with open marriage concept. Because he realized his sex drive was too high and it made him too unhappy to have sex once a month. And I really get it. We are great friends now and I really don’t feel mad at him anymore for cheating. I can understand why he searched for love somewhere else.

Now, karma... I am the one in a relationship without enough intimacy, I would love once or twice a month, my DH ? Never I guess... he assures me he loves me. I think that if he cannot love me more, if he has no interest in having sex with me, he should free me. Either an open relationship or divorce. I am NOT saying goodbye to sex and intimacy at 39 yo, life is too short

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP Here. Thanks for the responses. As a single woman, I meet divorced men from sexless marriages.

Being denied sex and intimacy is a form of abuse, just as bad as being cheated on if not worse. Not surprised that men (or women) who emerge from these have trouble trusting again.

Have you found out yet why the ex spouse didn't want to have sex with them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New pp and DW here who has been on both side of the sexless equation (been the one not into sex In first relationship, my DH is now the low libido one). I fully agree with you. Your logic make perfect sense. No one should be forced to have sex but no one is forced to stay in a sexless marriage and accept celibacy.

My first partner ended up cheating on me and leaving me because I refused him the level of intimacy he wanted. He felt completely unloved and uncared for. I basically traumatized him so much that from there on he has refused to enter any relationship that was not ok with open marriage concept. Because he realized his sex drive was too high and it made him too unhappy to have sex once a month. And I really get it. We are great friends now and I really don’t feel mad at him anymore for cheating. I can understand why he searched for love somewhere else.

Now, karma... I am the one in a relationship without enough intimacy, I would love once or twice a month, my DH ? Never I guess... he assures me he loves me. I think that if he cannot love me more, if he has no interest in having sex with me, he should free me. Either an open relationship or divorce. I am NOT saying goodbye to sex and intimacy at 39 yo, life is too short

Thank you for sharing your perspective, well-written. I can relate to your ex-DH. I am recently divorced from a sexless marriage and I am similarly "jaded" although traumatized is probably a better word. While intellectually I know women enjoy and love sex, I cant' get it out of my mind that it feels like its all temporary until we hit the comfort level. I won't get into a serious relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, why is the man’s drive “normal” and the woman’s is “low?” Maybe she’s the normal one and he’s the one with a pathology. Who says normal has to be defined by what men want?

Loving couples meet in the middle.

Because there isn't a libido gap while dating, during courtship, while engaged, early in marriage. We know this because if there had been a gap, the relationship never would progress.

Then later on a gap appears. Not because the man's drive suddenly INCREASED but because the woman's DECREASED. His libido does not change, her libido changes.
This pattern makes him "normal" and her "low".

[Anonymous]

People can feel betrayed. I have a high drive, always have. DH has know what for years. It’s who I am. He’s now changed and wants less sex. We aren’t sexless at all, but it’s less than I like. I now have no choice but to change who I am and what I need, or cheat or leave. Not fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People can feel betrayed. I have a high drive, always have. DH has know what for years. It’s who I am. He’s now changed and wants less sex. We aren’t sexless at all, but it’s less than I like. I now have no choice but to change who I am and what I need, or cheat or leave. Not fair.

How much less?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People can feel betrayed. I have a high drive, always have. DH has know what for years. It’s who I am. He’s now changed and wants less sex. We aren’t sexless at all, but it’s less than I like. I now have no choice but to change who I am and what I need, or cheat or leave. Not fair.

How much less?

Half.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People can feel betrayed. I have a high drive, always have. DH has know what for years. It’s who I am. He’s now changed and wants less sex. We aren’t sexless at all, but it’s less than I like. I now have no choice but to change who I am and what I need, or cheat or leave. Not fair.

How much less?

Half.

People change over the course of a marriage. It just happens and all we really can do is accept it.
Some lose interest in sex; others lose interest in monogamy.
(there seems to be a strong correlation)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People can feel betrayed. I have a high drive, always have. DH has know what for years. It’s who I am. He’s now changed and wants less sex. We aren’t sexless at all, but it’s less than I like. I now have no choice but to change who I am and what I need, or cheat or leave. Not fair.

How much less?

Half.

Ugh! After almost 40 years together we still have sex at least once a week, more like once every 4-5 days. I was never high libido so I guess I’m lucky to still have the interest but my husband is an incredibly attentive lover so the experience is still very special. I’m pretty good at taking care of his needs so that helps too.

[Anonymous]

Um, if my hot sexy wife said that she might eventually decide not to have sex while we’re both still healthy, I wouldn’t have married her, that’s not the approach I seek. And now that she is there years later it may be the undoing of us, I won’t cheat / don’t want to, but won’t be a monk either.