Pelvic exams on unconscious women

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems like the definition of a pelvic exam involves some evaluation for diagnostic or treatment purposes. If it's not done for those reasons, isn't that the same thing as some creep in any other non-medical setting doing the same thing to a woman, which would be rape?

That man may also have an MD. And he might commit the crime in his medical practice office. And he might have her consent to preform another procedure or to drug her. What's to stop him from saying that he deemed it "necessary"? It seems to me to be the same thing. (In fact, didn't something similar happen recently with some sort of sports team, maybe gymnastics??)

Can anyone with a legal background explain the difference between a "pelvic exam" that is not performed for the reason of actually diagnosing or treating the patient and "rape"? Why are things not legally crimes if they're committed during business hours in a reputable medical institution? And that's even if the woman has previously consented to being examined at all by med students, which I'm sure the vast majority do/would not if they'd been explicitly asked and/or aware of what they were signing.

exactly, how is this not rape

This is outrageous, and clearly begun when medicine was still a male-dominated profession. If you don't do this to a woman when she's awake, you KNOW why you aren't doing it when she's awake. She'd kill you -- she'd sue you for all you're worth. And like a true cowardly act, it's done when a woman is at her most helpless, unconscious and at your mercy. Imagine trying to get a woman to agree to being looked at by a train of medical students and even residents, and being okay with it. How many women would agree to this sort of invasion?!

Gee, I wonder if they avoid treating known female lawyers in this way?

I think I know the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems like the definition of a pelvic exam involves some evaluation for diagnostic or treatment purposes. If it's not done for those reasons, isn't that the same thing as some creep in any other non-medical setting doing the same thing to a woman, which would be rape?

That man may also have an MD. And he might commit the crime in his medical practice office. And he might have her consent to preform another procedure or to drug her. What's to stop him from saying that he deemed it "necessary"? It seems to me to be the same thing. (In fact, didn't something similar happen recently with some sort of sports team, maybe gymnastics??)

Can anyone with a legal background explain the difference between a "pelvic exam" that is not performed for the reason of actually diagnosing or treating the patient and "rape"? Why are things not legally crimes if they're committed during business hours in a reputable medical institution? And that's even if the woman has previously consented to being examined at all by med students, which I'm sure the vast majority do/would not if they'd been explicitly asked and/or aware of what they were signing.

exactly, how is this not rape

This is outrageous, and clearly begun when medicine was still a male-dominated profession. If you don't do this to a woman when she's awake, you KNOW why you aren't doing it when she's awake. She'd kill you -- she'd sue you for all you're worth. And like a true cowardly act, it's done when a woman is at her most helpless, unconscious and at your mercy. Imagine trying to get a woman to agree to being looked at by a train of medical students and even residents, and being okay with it. How many women would agree to this sort of invasion?!

Gee, I wonder if they avoid treating known female lawyers in this way?

I think I know the answer.

Back in the olden days they used to make women unconscious during childbirth. I can't imagine how they male doctors treated them. Sickening that misogyny is still part of medicine in 2018.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is EXACTLY why you NEVER
leave your loved one ALONE in a hospital!

You NEVER know WHAT they're doing to them.
Hospitals are NOT safe places.

Just saying the truth.
Buyer BEWARE.

While I agree with this, I don't see how it helps avoid things happening in the operating room. I've never been given the option to accompany a loved one to the OR,

[Anonymous]

This is making me wonder about every doctor, male or female, that I know. Did they do this!?

I'm glad I didn't know about this before the surgery I had recently. Non-gynological, thank goodness.

I have almost always chosen women doctors for myself and kids, but for specialists, I have had some men. My current cardiologist is excellent and took precautions I hadn't even thought to ask about - for my first exam with him he brought a nurse in, who just quietly stood against the wall to be witness. I have no idea if it is legally required or not, but I appreciated it.

[Anonymous]

“Interestingly, research shows that while first-year medical students largely find the idea of practicing pelvic exams on women under anesthetic to be morally problematic, the longer they spend in medical school, the less they see it as an issue. Some have labeled this process, which shows up in many aspects of medical education, “ethical erosion.” “

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.slate.com/technology/2018/10/pelvic-exams-unconscious-women-medical-training-consent.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Interestingly, research shows that while first-year medical students largely find the idea of practicing pelvic exams on women under anesthetic to be morally problematic, the longer they spend in medical school, the less they see it as an issue. Some have labeled this process, which shows up in many aspects of medical education, “ethical erosion.” “

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.slate.com/technology/2018/10/pelvic-exams-unconscious-women-medical-training-consent.html

Ugh. That's disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Ethical erosion. Yes, my mom has always talked about a date she had one time with a Georgetown med student who apparently acted like he was "all that" the entire evening, and offered to her, "Do you want to see if we can get into the autopsy classroom and see dead bodies? I know how we can do it." My mom was horrified, not because she thought it would be "gross," but because she knew those had been real people and she thought it was so disrespectful. She said no and never went out with that guy again, and, obviously, has told the story so many times, I remember it today. I am 45 yo, and my parents were married in 1972 and met in 1969, so this shows you how long ago this was and what an impression it made on her. Western medicine is good at many things, but horrible at MANY, MANY others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is EXACTLY why you NEVER
leave your loved one ALONE in a hospital!

You NEVER know WHAT they're doing to them.
Hospitals are NOT safe places.

Just saying the truth.
Buyer BEWARE.

So, what do you suggest, to accompany your loved one into the OR and hang out there during surgery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Interestingly, research shows that while first-year medical students largely find the idea of practicing pelvic exams on women under anesthetic to be morally problematic, the longer they spend in medical school, the less they see it as an issue. Some have labeled this process, which shows up in many aspects of medical education, “ethical erosion.” “

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.slate.com/technology/2018/10/pelvic-exams-unconscious-women-medical-training-consent.html

Ugh. That's disgusting.

+1

I literally got goosebumps to read that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is EXACTLY why you NEVER
leave your loved one ALONE in a hospital!

You NEVER know WHAT they're doing to them.
Hospitals are NOT safe places.

Just saying the truth.
Buyer BEWARE.

So, what do you suggest, to accompany your loved one into the OR and hang out there during surgery?

Why not? You don't have to see the actual surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is EXACTLY why you NEVER
leave your loved one ALONE in a hospital!

You NEVER know WHAT they're doing to them.
Hospitals are NOT safe places.

Just saying the truth.
Buyer BEWARE.

So, what do you suggest, to accompany your loved one into the OR and hang out there during surgery?

Why not? You don't have to see the actual surgery.

I think the point is that you’re not allowed into the OR, dummy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is EXACTLY why you NEVER
leave your loved one ALONE in a hospital!

You NEVER know WHAT they're doing to them.
Hospitals are NOT safe places.

Just saying the truth.
Buyer BEWARE.

So, what do you suggest, to accompany your loved one into the OR and hang out there during surgery?

Why not? You don't have to see the actual surgery.

I think the point is that you’re not allowed into the OR, dummy.

Perhaps you're too young to remember when fathers weren't allowed to stay with their wives in the delivery rooms, you Twit Doctor. (Don't deny who you are.) Lol.

[Anonymous]

There was a time when the husband would decide whose life the doctor would save during childbirth, mother or baby. My parents told us about it. It was Dads choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a time when the husband would decide whose life the doctor would save during childbirth, mother or baby. My parents told us about it. It was Dads choice.

That's because the mothers were knocked out during delivery and so couldn't be asked.

[Anonymous]

Some of the posts on this subject are bizarre to the point of being totally ignorant.

Simple rule: if you are going to get treated in a teaching hospital, be willing to have interns, residents and medical students involved in your care and treatment. If that is not acceptable to you then just don't go to a teaching hospital. A patient - male of female - has the right to be treated professionally and respectfully but to want the best treatment which may be available at teaching hospital and then expect the non-involvement of those who are there to be trained as future physicians is ridiculous.