Anonymous wrote:The people I know raised in this community were from families of non-Messianic Jews three generations ago and often devoutly so. They seemed to all have close knit faith communities, but not necessarily a physical house of worship. Some siblings converted to mainstream Judaism as adults.
Judaism can have multiple messiahs. There are also Jews who believe their rabbi is the messiah, which I imagine causes some confusion in marketing.
Not true. You really don't know what you think you know.
Anonymous wrote:Any other actual Jews getting the feeling there's no point in continuing to discuss this with whomever is pushing here for us to recognize Jews for Jesus as Jews? They clearly don't want to understand.
Yep. I'm out.
Yeah, I'm kicking myself for coming back in. There's really no point.
Anonymous wrote:The people I know raised in this community were from families of non-Messianic Jews three generations ago and often devoutly so. They seemed to all have close knit faith communities, but not necessarily a physical house of worship. Some siblings converted to mainstream Judaism as adults.
Judaism can have multiple messiahs. There are also Jews who believe their rabbi is the messiah, which I imagine causes some confusion in marketing.
The problem isn’t actually the messiah part; it’s the rest of it. Messianic Jews believe Jesus was the messiah AND that he wiped away everyone’s sins and thus we can go to heaven if we accept him. (You know, like other Christians believe.) Also the part where they believe the New Testament is part of their Bible, which Judaism does not believe.
No Jews think Chabadniks are Christians, because even if they think the rebbe was the Messiah, they don’t do all the other Christian stuff that Jews for Jesus do.
Anonymous wrote:The people I know raised in this community were from families of non-Messianic Jews three generations ago and often devoutly so. They seemed to all have close knit faith communities, but not necessarily a physical house of worship. Some siblings converted to mainstream Judaism as adults.
Judaism can have multiple messiahs. There are also Jews who believe their rabbi is the messiah, which I imagine causes some confusion in marketing.
The problem isn’t actually the messiah part; it’s the rest of it. Messianic Jews believe Jesus was the messiah AND that he wiped away everyone’s sins and thus we can go to heaven if we accept him. (You know, like other Christians believe.) Also the part where they believe the New Testament is part of their Bible, which Judaism does not believe.
No Jews think Chabadniks are Christians, because even if they think the rebbe was the Messiah, they don’t do all the other Christian stuff that Jews for Jesus do.
So some Jews think their personal rabbi is the messiah and that’s valid and they are considered Jewish, as well?
Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.
This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?
Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.
The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.
They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.
Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.
NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?
Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.
Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.
Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?
Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.
Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?
In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.
Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.
I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.
A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.
But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.
It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.
Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.
But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.
DP. I hope you understand how unconvincing this sounds. As pp said, these guys think they’re Jewish, so apparently self-described Jews don’t all agree on the messiah thing.
It’s unconvincing to say that you’re not Jewish if you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Huh? Are you brain damaged? How about Christians who don’t believe in Jesus? Muslims for Jesus? Mohammed is just optional and makes a great t-shirt image?
Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.
This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?
Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.
The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.
They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.
Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.
NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?
Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.
Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.
Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?
Who gets to decide? Jews. There are rabbinical courts in Jewish communities that oversee/decide on matters of halacha (including conversions to Judaism, marriage and divorce, etc). While someone's Jewishness can't be revoked or invalidated, a Jew who rejects Judaism is an apostate. While they would be welcome to return to Judaism someday, nobody in the Jewish community is entertaining the idea that an apostate is still part of the Jewish community while they're over on the side worshipping Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
In the case of Messianic "rabbis," they shouldn't call themselves that without being ordained by a Jewish institution - there are many rabbinical schools and rabbinic councils. Ordination can be revoked for a bunch of reasons (depending on the rules of the specific council/body), including proselytizing about Jesus. If a Messianic "rabbi" was ordained outside of a Jewish movement (and no Jewish movement is going to ordain someone who professes faith in Jesus as the messiah), then they shouldn't be using the title "rabbi." That would be like me going to art school and then putting M.D. on the end of my name and trying to practice medicine.
Maybe it’s time for all religions to modernize and get with the times. The ancient rules and traditions from thousands of years ago don’t necessarily apply or fit in our modern culture and world. Especially since it seems like a lot of Jewish people are atheists and don’t even believe in God, why all the rules?
In what ways should Judaism (and "all religions") modernize? I'm a Conservative (denomination, not politics) Jew living without much problem in the modern, secular US. If your vision of "modernization" really just means throwing out traditions and basic tenets of our faith (like the fact that worshipping Jesus isn't compatible with Jewish theology), then I wholeheartedly reject that.
Not believing in God is compatible with Jewish theology, so why is belief in Jesus not compatible? At least the Jewish people who believe in JC believe in God.
I don't think you understand religion or theology. Certainly, you don't understand Judaism specifically, which, to be fair, is a complex web of religion/culture/ethnicity that many people struggle to comprehend. But I really don't know why the basics of religion in general are so difficult for you.
A person can be Jewish and atheist. There are plenty of Jewish atheists today who view God as a metaphor or see the concept of God reflected in humanity, rather than a real Creator/Deity. They find value and wisdom in the Torah and Jewish Law, even if God is not real. I attended a Shabbat service at a Conservative synagogue once where a member was invited to give the sermon and his sermon was about how he is an atheist, but belonged to the synagogue and attended regularly for the communal connection. There are many ways to plug into Judaism.
But, again, belief in Jesus as the Messiah is not Judaism. It's Christianity. Jesus has his whole own religion, so people who worship Jesus shouldn't go around pretending to be practicing Judaism.
It’s nonsensical to allow some Jewish people to make up their own rules about being Jewish, but not others.
Look, there are very few hard and fast rules in Judaism. There are lots of ways to be Jewish. We love to argue and debate. Two Jews, Three Opinions. Rabbis disagreeing with each other about Jewish Law across the centuries (see: the Talmud) is one of the major texts of our faith. That's not "making up rules about being Jewish;" it's a core component of Judaism.
But Jesus NOT being the messiah is one of the things that Jews agree on.
DP. I hope you understand how unconvincing this sounds. As pp said, these guys think they’re Jewish, so apparently self-described Jews don’t all agree on the messiah thing.
It’s unconvincing to say that you’re not Jewish if you believe Jesus is the Messiah? Huh? Are you brain damaged? How about Christians who don’t believe in Jesus? Muslims for Jesus? Mohammed is just optional and makes a great t-shirt image?
However, a devout Muslim doesn’t consider Mohammed to be God, only God’s last messenger. Nor is one putting Mohammed’s image on anything.
That’s my point. Nobody would be here with a straight face arguing that a group called “Muslims for Christ” that beliebes Christ is the son of god and Mohammed was just Christ’s disciple but not a prophet, and proceeded to put images of Mohammed in their churches … is actually Muslim.
Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.
There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.
The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.
No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).
Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.
Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.
There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.
The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.
No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).
Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.
I suggest we stop engaging with this post. Stop feeding this troll.
Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.
There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.
The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.
No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).
Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.
Wow. so you’re really dug in on how Jews have no right to determine even the most basic rules about their religion? I’m not sure if you actually actively dislike Jewish individuals but you are definitely anti-semitic.
Anonymous wrote:There is clearly a determined Christian missionary on this thread.
There are actually determined antisemites on DCUM unfortunately.
The thread was started by someone who is Jewish, complaining about Christians.
No it wasn’t. The thread was started by someone spreading a falsehood about Jews (that they sue to stop “Messianic Jewish” congregations).
Jewish people posting here (who don’t speak for all Jewish people) have illogical and inconsistent rules about who they think should be Jewish. The thread was started by a troll (notice op never showed up again) to denigrate Christianity. It ended up discussing topics Jewish people don’t like to discuss or explain, so they start claiming antisemitism. Nobody on this thread has a right to speak for all Jewish people or claim it’s antisemitism when people discuss Judaism.
The original question was not about Judaism, but about Christianity and people who worship Christ. So, we should be discussing that.
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