Question about Messianic Judaism
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Anonymous
It makes zero sense that a person is considered Jewish if they don’t believe in God, but are called names, disparaged, etc, because they think Jesus was the Son of God. It’s not hateful to ask why Jewish people can declare God does not exist and still be Jewish. It just doesn’t make any sense. It would seem a basic rule would be to acknowledge God exists. Jews regard Judaism as their means of observing the Mosaic covenant, which was established between God and the Israelites, their ancestors. Judaism is the belief that God is one and is concerned with the actions of mankind. God commanded the nation of Israel to love and worship only one God. God also commanded the Jewish people to love one another; Jews are to imitate God's love for people. So if a Jewish person is an atheist, how can they do any of these things? The person doesn’t believe the foundation of Judaism exists. |
Anonymous
Why do you think you, non-Jewish internet rando, can díctate whay makes zero sense in a religion with a long scholarly tradition of interpreting its own rules? You seem to be attempting to insult or invalidate Judaism as a whole based on some gotcha you think is so clever. Meanwhile as has been explained to you here, Jewish theologians have given careful thought to the question. More broadly, the crisis of faith happens in all religions - the dark night of the soul. Nobody gets upset for example that Mother Teresa had basically no faith for her entire life. |
Anonymous
I’m sorry this doesn’t make sense to you, but several people have explained it to you here. I really don’t think you’re going to persuade us that people who worship Jesus while wearing kippot and using Hebrew prayers are Jews, and it’s pretty clear at this point that you aren’t interested in the actual answers to your questions but only in “proving” that Jews are somehow being nefarious in our refusal to consider the members of an evangelical Christian sect with the conversion of Jews as its main purpose to be Jewish. I think I’m following the wise example of the people who stopped engaging with you after this post. |
Anonymous
There is no way the point of the OP’s first post in this thread was to denigrate Christianity. |
Anonymous
| I’m Christian and there are Magas who claim to be Christian while supporting Trump’s agenda of anti-immigration, tax cuts for the rich, and cutting social services. Mormons claim to be Christian. It’s not for me to say they’re not Christian, even if Maga’s are following the antithesis of Christ’s teachings. I figure maybe they’ll “see the light” one day and embrace the real message. |
Anonymous
But they all believe in Christ … saying you don’t think MAGAs are Christian because they don’t support social services is far different from saying someone who believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian, not Jewish. Sometimes I just think people are really stupid. Would like to believe that is the case here, instead of being this hostile towards Judaism. |
Anonymous
This forum has a plethora of anonymous, non-*insert religious denomination* randos trying to interpret rules and play gotcha with every religion. It doesn’t make sense that any religion that is based upon belief in a specific God would allow people who don’t believe in that God to be members of that religion. Nobody needs to disrespect or dislike someone that doesn’t have the same religious belief as they do, but including them in the religion when they deny the basis for your religion? Does your religion not have any actual meaning? Like Satanists who claim to be Satanists, but don’t actually believe in Satan. They say Satan is a “metaphor.” There are Satanists who do believe in Satan, but the Satanic Temple says they don’t and that their religion is based on: “The Mission Of The Satanic Temple Is To Encourage Benevolence And Empathy, Reject Tyrannical Authority, Advocate Practical Common Sense, Oppose Injustice, And Undertake Noble Pursuits.” No belief in a God or gods, so why is that considered a religion? Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods. So an atheist who has no belief in God is by definition not religious. Yet they are accepted as a Jewish person in the Jewish religion. The IRS gives religions/churches special rules, and it also seems like if a group is really not religious, they are using the IRS rules incorrectly to gain tax exemptions. It seems unethical and borderline illegal to claim to be a religion or religious and receive tax breaks meant for religious organizations while not actually having religious belief. |
Anonymous
I don’t think discussing Judaism is hostile. We see plenty of threads openly hostile to religion here: calling all religious people in a religion pedophiles, sex abusers, bigots, homophobes, implying religious people are less educated, etc, and those threads and comments stand. Remember the multiple threads based on the Yellowstone tv show that were used as evidence of Catholics abusing Native American children? Even after it was proven the United States government was the entity that was responsible for schools like that, ran schools like that, and that many different kind of religious organizations and religious denominations ran such schools, the threads and posters had no problem attacking Catholic people about the schools. ( I am not Catholic.) I don’t think asking questions about a religion is hostility. Nobody is saying Jewish people can’t have their own rules or their rules are wrong. It just doesn’t make any sense. A large portion of Jewish people are seemingly atheist and accepted as religious Jews. That continues to not make sense and defies logic. Yet Messianic Jews are considered not to be Jews, and face discrimination and persecution in Israel. (I am not a Messianic Jew, I just saw that they are not only not accepted, but are discriminated against and treated as outsiders, outcasts, and aren’t allowed to practice their religion in peace. Jewish extremists try to interrupt Messianic Jewish event in Jerusalem Protesters attempt to break into main hall, block participants from getting to convention; police arrest activist for allegedly attacking officer “Jewish extremists attempted to disrupt a convention of Messianic Jews in Jerusalem on Thursday. Activists from the Lehava organization, which opposes interfaith and interethnic relationships and marriages, and Or l’Achim, an organization that tries to counter Christian proselytization in Israel, tried to block participants from attending the event and attempted to break into the main hall at the Clal Center. Police were called to the event to disperse the protesters and ensure the safety of the event. One person was arrested for allegedly attacking police at the event. In a statement, police vowed to preserve freedom of expression and protest, “but not illegal public disturbances and rioting.” The event at the Clal Center was hosted by the Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel. Messianic Judaism is a movement that combines Jewish tradition and practice with the belief that Jesus Christ is the coming messiah. It is considered outside the fold by all mainstream Jewish denominations, who say the ideology directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets.“ https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-extremists-try-to-interrupt-messianic-jewish-event-in-jerusalem/amp/ So there are Jewish people who consider interface and inter ethnic marriage in Israel and violently oppose people they disagree with (scary, because there is a thread on this board that says the same thing) and although belief that Jesus is the Son of God is outside the fold and directly contradicts many of the religion’s principal tenets, so does atheism. Believing no God exists is outside the fold and directly contradicts many (if not most) of Jewish religious tenets. Yet atheist Jews are considered Jews. It doesn’t make sense. |
Anonymous
| *interfaith, not interface |
Anonymous
Why? Just curious…but why is it any more “annoying” to you than anyone else who believes differently from you or, for that matter, any more annoying than a non-religious Jew? |
Anonymous
| Oops I posted the above entry without reading the whole thread and now realize this has already been asked (and not really answered) but please disregard. |
Anonymous
Are you suggesting that churches and other religious institutions should be required to expel their members who don’t believe in God or they would lose their tax exempt status? That is ridiculous. Repeat this to yourself and actually think about what kind of enforcement and intrusion this would entail. Also tell me what tax status a Buddhist entity should receive? Or are you just trying to apply your ridiculous view to Jews? We are telling you that Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Jewish entities don’t consider messianic Jews to be Jewish. That’s it. Get over yourself. |
Anonymous
Yes, but why do they consider Jews who don’t believe in God, Jewish? |
Anonymous
Maybe Jewish people should follow your example, maybe they should embrace Messianic Jews and someday they will see the light and embrace actual Judaism, is that what you are saying? |
Anonymous
No, but if an institution isn’t following IRS rules, that’s illegal. I don’t think IRS rules should be applied unfairly or target any specific religion. There are a lot of posters here that don’t believe religious institutions should be allowed any tax exemption and constantly want the government to take away the IRS exemption from religious institutions. I don’t think that is a good idea; religious institutions do so much good in the world. However if there is no religious belief in an organization, how does that follow tax law? The institution that has the tax exemption has to follow the law. |