Why are kids with problematic behavior left in mainstream classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If a coworker did that to me at work, I'd file a police report. Why should me child be subjected to out of control kids?

This is how I feel. I can’t imagine allowing anything close to this kind of behavior at work. Why do we allow this in schools? And why do we subject our kids to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher and things are out of control. I have a student flipping a desk on almost a daily basis because he gets frustrated with his math (compacted). He screams and sets off other students. The other students are scared and I’m frustrated. Everyone refuses to be his partner which further enrages him.

I have 4 other students with hefty IEP’s and 3 with 504 plans. This 7 kids ALL have preferential seating.

Plenty others will not stop talking.

I am a 20 year veteran teacher who has always been highly rated and requested by parents. It has never been this bad.

My primary responsibility seems to have changed from providing high quality education to being a babysitter and just trying to keep kids safe. I hate teaching now. It used to be fun for students and teachers but the behaviors and lack of discipline/ consequences have made it a daily hell.

I’m sorry to hear this. My sister-in-law is a teacher and she tells me the same. She will NEVER encourage her kids to go into teaching. She’s a fantastic teacher and enjoys the actual teaching, but the disciplinary issues are soul-sucking.

Oh man, do we work at the same MCPS elementary school? The public has NO idea how far out of control things have become in the last five years. I don't know how anyone will make it to thirty years for retirement. My niece has expressed interest in teaching and I hate to squash her dreams but I want to scream at her to choose a different major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it all about the rights of the individual?
The rights of the teacher and everyone else in the classroom don’t seem to matter at all. Why?

Lack of common sense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If a coworker did that to me at work, I'd file a police report. Why should me child be subjected to out of control kids?

Guess who are entering the workforce in a couple of years.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion but LRE is not beneficial for the students its in place for. So many children need to be in a resource room in order to receive the support and services they need. This is both academically and behaviorally. In theory, it looks great on paper and it sounds great for equity. However, in practice, it is not best practice for all of the students in the classroom.

I think this as well.

That post doesn't even make sense. How can you think that as well?

It most assuredly does make sense, and I agree with it also. DP

Another agreement that it makes sense, and that I agree. NP

And the research demonstrating otherwise?

Feel free to cite a recent, solid source, if you like.

30 years experience in the classroom. Listen to the people actually in the buildings, doing the work. Research means nothing when these people havent stepped foot in a classroom in years, or usually, ever.

I'm really curious how you're able to get a broad view of long-term outcomes of students placed in different settings as a classroom teacher. How do you know how your students would have performed if some were placed in a different classroom and teacher? And how do you know about long-term outcomes after they leave your classroom and school? Care to explain?

My kid is in a sped classroom. I keep in touch with his elem teacher that helped me get him in there. I share with her how he's doing and let her know that I'm open to discussing the placement with any parent that is on the fence about the program. My kids elem teacher knows exactly how well he's doing and how the change in placement made a huge difference.

You realize that's a data point of one, right? Not particularly meaningful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a coworker did that to me at work, I'd file a police report. Why should me child be subjected to out of control kids?

This is how I feel. I can’t imagine allowing anything close to this kind of behavior at work. Why do we allow this in schools? And why do we subject our kids to this.

To be fair, you probably also don’t see people wetting their pants and having temper tantrums at work either. I get your point, but children are different from adults.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion but LRE is not beneficial for the students its in place for. So many children need to be in a resource room in order to receive the support and services they need. This is both academically and behaviorally. In theory, it looks great on paper and it sounds great for equity. However, in practice, it is not best practice for all of the students in the classroom.

I think this as well.

That post doesn't even make sense. How can you think that as well?

It most assuredly does make sense, and I agree with it also. DP

Another agreement that it makes sense, and that I agree. NP

And the research demonstrating otherwise?

Feel free to cite a recent, solid source, if you like.

30 years experience in the classroom. Listen to the people actually in the buildings, doing the work. Research means nothing when these people havent stepped foot in a classroom in years, or usually, ever.

I'm really curious how you're able to get a broad view of long-term outcomes of students placed in different settings as a classroom teacher. How do you know how your students would have performed if some were placed in a different classroom and teacher? And how do you know about long-term outcomes after they leave your classroom and school? Care to explain?

My kid is in a sped classroom. I keep in touch with his elem teacher that helped me get him in there. I share with her how he's doing and let her know that I'm open to discussing the placement with any parent that is on the fence about the program. My kids elem teacher knows exactly how well he's doing and how the change in placement made a huge difference.

You realize that's a data point of one, right? Not particularly meaningful.

Where are your counter data points? You keep posting replies without anything to back them up. You definitely don't know what you're talking about, but keep posting your meaningless comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a coworker did that to me at work, I'd file a police report. Why should me child be subjected to out of control kids?

Guess who are entering the workforce in a couple of years.

True but public education isn't the same as working for a private company.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Put all the disruptive kids together and let them battle

That indeed sounds like a plan, many would know there is someone stronger than them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a coworker did that to me at work, I'd file a police report. Why should me child be subjected to out of control kids?

This is how I feel. I can’t imagine allowing anything close to this kind of behavior at work. Why do we allow this in schools? And why do we subject our kids to this.

To be fair, you probably also don’t see people wetting their pants and having temper tantrums at work either. I get your point, but children are different from adults.

Wetting your pants or having temper tantrums are also not acceptable in elementary school. Occasionally issues will pop up and be sent to the nurse, but a typical child will not deal with those past kindergarten. But sure, let’s normalize these things and tell elementary teachers that they should now be responsible for dealing with them.

[Anonymous]

When these types of incidents occur, email the Office of Student Support and Well Being- [e-mail]. You should also cc Moderately Moco, Bethesda Beat, or the Washington Post in the email. That and say you have officially brought legal action against the system for knowingly putting children at risk. This is the only way they will acknowledge any incident. They will ignore if you don’t get the press involved. Period. Look at what happened to the teacher in Virginia…. How many more incidents until this happens in MOCO?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When these types of incidents occur, email the Office of Student Support and Well Being- [e-mail]. You should also cc Moderately Moco, Bethesda Beat, or the Washington Post in the email. That and say you have officially brought legal action against the system for knowingly putting children at risk. This is the only way they will acknowledge any incident. They will ignore if you don’t get the press involved. Period. Look at what happened to the teacher in Virginia…. How many more incidents until this happens in MOCO?

How has that tactic worked so far?

FYI Dr. Moran’s roots run deep in MCPS. He is a legacy appointment who has been promoted quickly through the ranks. He talks a good game but will do nothing to solve a real problem. He is just waiting for his next promotion. Central Office doesn’t care if staff or students get hurt. Dr. Moran will make sure that his children get the best teachers in the best programs MCPS has to offer. He will sweep any problems under the rug. BTDT.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight but you all should be so very grateful that you do not have a child who has these challenges. Take just a moment and think what it must be like for those parents.

One can feel sympathy for the families dealing with these issues, and also recognize that the current policies don’t work. Kids should not have to evacuate a classroom because their classmate is throwing furniture. Students who throw things or otherwise abuse their teachers or classmates should not be in mainstream classrooms. Sympathy for their parents doesn’t change that.

Shouldn’t this be called attempted murder?!

throwing a tub of playdoh is attempted murder?

Throwing chairs and tables, not “Play-Doh,” but then, you already knew that.

"Throwing" tables? That's impressive. How high and how far?

My kid was in a class in 4th grade where the student would flip desks over, throw chairs and threw the trash can. Some of these 4th and 5th grade students can be pretty strong.

OK. The PP said students were throwing tables. I'd like to see that. From a distance, of course. Flipping over tables isn't as impressive. Or dangerous.

Nobody cares about what impresses you and your sense of danger is misplaced. You as a grown adult are better equipped to deal with and defend yourself from violence. Kids, not so much. This type of activity has no place in a classroom

Nor is it OK to lie or exaggerate about what kids are and are not doing in classrooms.

Fair enough. So can we agree that it is highly unlikely (if not impossible) that the children in question were throwing actual tables, but they may have been throwing chairs, waste cans, office equipment, or other less heavy objects, as well as being disruptive or frightening to classmates verbally and physically, and move on? I am more than happy to grant that.

DP

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. But there's an ongoing issue with exaggeration in these discussions, and I doubt your post is going to change that.

Understood, and I respect the ground you make a stand on. I'm an advocate for accuracy, especially when it is soemthing people have strong feelings about. Hyperbole does not help.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am a parent of such a child. No thanks to the school system, she's never hurt anyone.

They refuse to make classes for these kids.

It is not a funding issue!

It is not a staffing issue!

It's a combination of hoping kids will age out (hence the long delays at every step)

And misplaced concerns about equity.

(My child is white, and I'd be thrilled for them to be in a self contained class with anyone of any color. Don't believe me? Find out how long the waiting list for such classes is in your district.)

How many classes should they make? Self contained classes can have 5-15 students. How many classes that small can be made in a district where schools are already over crowded. Do you expect Gen Ed classes to now hold 50+ kids??

I would love to see 2 self contained classes per elem school. My kid was in the Asperger’s program. His class was mixed grades. It would be great if there was a k-2 and a 3-5 class.

For what people are suggesting here, two self-contained classrooms wouldn't be enough. Besides the fact that you wouldn't be able to appropriately accommodate their disabilities by simply grouping them all together, there would be too many students to fit into two classrooms.

And you'd also run out of physical classrooms.

While some parents don't want their kids to go into self-contained classrooms, that's not nearly the limiting factor on the size/number of self-contained classrooms in MCPS. There are lots of parents that want their kids in special education programs, but can't get placement. The main issue is that it is cheaper to teach kids with disabilities in general education classrooms. And it is even cheaper to teach them in general education classrooms without the necessary special education supports and services. So that's what MCPS does whenever they can get away with it.

Exactly. It's even worse in Boston Public Schools in MA, where apparently there is a conscious choice to pay out for lawsuits to harmed kids, as it's cheaper.

[Anonymous]

This kumbaya stuff has proven not to work and we need to get back to what does work. Students should be tracked based on ability and disruptive kids should be removed from normal classrooms.

It is likely that the outcome will not look equitable. We should not use that as a reason not to do what’s right.