Purdue Returning to Test Required

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

And yet Caltech manages to do it. It must be a second rate engineering school since it doesn’t use an exam that tests basic algebra and exactly zero science or engineering concepts to choose who it admits.

Caltech is an extraordinary place with approximately infinite resources and approximately zero students. Purdue is a pretty good school, for an ordinary school. That’s the actual significance of this. Most T100 universities (and the overwhelming majority by enrollment) are decent schools with limited resources educating tens of thousands of students at a time. In other words, most schools are unlike MIT/Caltech, and a lot like Purdue.

We are talking about admissions. So the infinite resources don’t really factor into this. It’s just the size and ability of the admissions office.

You think the admissions office admits as many students as they want with no consideration for the school's resources?

No I think the school’s resources are irrelevant in determining whether to use a standardized test in evaluating applicants. It is discrete thing that isn’t connected to the university at large. How large is a budget for an admissions office?

Why are you so determined to believe that Caltech doesn’t invest significant time and energy into reviewing each application, especially when making the final selection? I’m sure the school would tell you that they do!

of course they do. which is why going TO isn't an issue. it's not a matter of the SAT being necessary, it's a cover for an admissions office. if Caltech can do it, so can MIT and so can Purdue. The relative sizes isn't the basis for an argument that test are necessary. They're only used because the school doesn't want to spend the resources to figure it out.

So you think Purdue should be forced to increase its application fees and/or tuition in order to do admissions the expensive way, when there’s a less expensive option that’s just as predictive of success.

No, I don't. They can do what they want, but let's then not also pretend that it's because they're a STEM school and this is the only way to do it. Clearly a different way exists, they just don't want to pursue it. You've just agreed it's a choice on the part of the school between a closer review of applications and using a standardized test and that both are just are predictive of success. So why criticize schools that remain TO?

I didn’t criticize Caltech. I said it wasn’t a useful model for Purdue. Your response is “yes, but if Purdue wanted to spend more money to get the same results, then it would be.” Ok? Purdue doesn’t want to spend extra money on admissions to get the same results. Ergo, Caltech is not a useful model for Purdue.

Oh, and I also said that most students attending T100 schools attend schools that are more like Purdue than Caltech. I think that’s indisputable.

Caltech is its own thing, and it can go on doing its own thing.

Purdue is more typical, so it’s more of a bellwether.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

I know. I scored a 1540 as immigrant Laotian using pages from a SAT prep book that were hand copied in the margins of Italian store take-out menus. I would have stolen a copy if I hadn’t found them.

.
You could have borrowed test prep books from the library.

.

Our library had one copy that a couple hundred kids were vying for. So shoplifting really was the only option.

Isn't a SAT prep book like $15?
If you are that much flat broke, college is not a place for you.
get a job

Those who complain that they can't get a few SAT or ACT prep books are just those that want to invest zero effort into their learning. They will have same complaints after going into colleges. We got a bunch of prep books from a yard sale, 50 cents a piece. After use, they were given away to neighbors. You can find a lot on local craiglist as well. Like this, https://cnj.craigslist.org/bks/d/piscataway-sat-prep-books/7557155201.html
Too many ways you can get it cheap, if you give it a little of your attention. No one should have this as an excuse really. That you don't do it is just simply you don't want to do it, not because the tempirary acquisition of several prep books is the insurmountable obstacle.

Over 10 million kids live below the poverty line in the US. At least 5 million are probably capable of making good use of college, and at least 500k of them are test prep age. Show us where the 500k prep books can be obtained cheaply.

That said, this whole argument is moot. College Board offers free test prep online, and it's a lot easier for those who can't afford prep books to find free wifi than to find the books cheaply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

And yet Caltech manages to do it. It must be a second rate engineering school since it doesn’t use an exam that tests basic algebra and exactly zero science or engineering concepts to choose who it admits.

Caltech is an extraordinary place with approximately infinite resources and approximately zero students. Purdue is a pretty good school, for an ordinary school. That’s the actual significance of this. Most T100 universities (and the overwhelming majority by enrollment) are decent schools with limited resources educating tens of thousands of students at a time. In other words, most schools are unlike MIT/Caltech, and a lot like Purdue.

We are talking about admissions. So the infinite resources don’t really factor into this. It’s just the size and ability of the admissions office.

You think the admissions office admits as many students as they want with no consideration for the school's resources?

No I think the school’s resources are irrelevant in determining whether to use a standardized test in evaluating applicants. It is discrete thing that isn’t connected to the university at large. How large is a budget for an admissions office?

Why are you so determined to believe that Caltech doesn’t invest significant time and energy into reviewing each application, especially when making the final selection? I’m sure the school would tell you that they do!

of course they do. which is why going TO isn't an issue. it's not a matter of the SAT being necessary, it's a cover for an admissions office. if Caltech can do it, so can MIT and so can Purdue. The relative sizes isn't the basis for an argument that test are necessary. They're only used because the school doesn't want to spend the resources to figure it out.

So you think Purdue should be forced to increase its application fees and/or tuition in order to do admissions the expensive way, when there’s a less expensive option that’s just as predictive of success.

No, I don't. They can do what they want, but let's then not also pretend that it's because they're a STEM school and this is the only way to do it. Clearly a different way exists, they just don't want to pursue it. You've just agreed it's a choice on the part of the school between a closer review of applications and using a standardized test and that both are just are predictive of success. So why criticize schools that remain TO?

I didn’t criticize Caltech. I said it wasn’t a useful model for Purdue. Your response is “yes, but if Purdue wanted to spend more money to get the same results, then it would be.” Ok? Purdue doesn’t want to spend extra money on admissions to get the same results. Ergo, Caltech is not a useful model for Purdue.

Oh, and I also said that most students attending T100 schools attend schools that are more like Purdue than Caltech. I think that’s indisputable.

Caltech is its own thing, and it can go on doing its own thing.

Purdue is more typical, so it’s more of a bellwether.

fair enough - but the response was based on the earlier posts: "We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions."

it is, and should be, a matter of choice for the school. They should choose what works best for them since multiple paths exist to get the desired result.

I don't see any college as being a bellwether. Certainly you have a number of schools in the 1500-2500 students per class range electing to continue TO and some not. Are schools that size more like Purdue or Caltech?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

I know. I scored a 1540 as immigrant Laotian using pages from a SAT prep book that were hand copied in the margins of Italian store take-out menus. I would have stolen a copy if I hadn’t found them.

.
You could have borrowed test prep books from the library.

.

Our library had one copy that a couple hundred kids were vying for. So shoplifting really was the only option.

Isn't a SAT prep book like $15?
If you are that much flat broke, college is not a place for you.
get a job

Those who complain that they can't get a few SAT or ACT prep books are just those that want to invest zero effort into their learning. They will have same complaints after going into colleges. We got a bunch of prep books from a yard sale, 50 cents a piece. After use, they were given away to neighbors. You can find a lot on local craiglist as well. Like this, https://cnj.craigslist.org/bks/d/piscataway-sat-prep-books/7557155201.html
Too many ways you can get it cheap, if you give it a little of your attention. No one should have this as an excuse really. That you don't do it is just simply you don't want to do it, not because the tempirary acquisition of several prep books is the insurmountable obstacle.

Over 10 million kids live below the poverty line in the US. At least 5 million are probably capable of making good use of college, and at least 500k of them are test prep age. Show us where the 500k prep books can be obtained cheaply.

That said, this whole argument is moot. College Board offers free test prep online, and it's a lot easier for those who can't afford prep books to find free wifi than to find the books cheaply.

can't find a prep book, but finding the computer to access the free wifi for hours at a time is pretty darn easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

And yet Caltech manages to do it. It must be a second rate engineering school since it doesn’t use an exam that tests basic algebra and exactly zero science or engineering concepts to choose who it admits.

To be fair, we don’t know whether or not Cal Tech has had any issues with test optional or not. We are only 18 months into this experiment.

to be fair, Cal Tech doesn't think they have any issues. In August they elected to go test-free (they won't even look at them) through 2025.

"The institute said in a statement the decision to continue the testing ban stems from a “rigorous internal analysis” of the previous seven cohorts of first-year undergraduates and their academic results. This encompasses students who matriculated before and after CalTech began test-free admissions.

Sticking with these policies will allow CalTech to keep studying links between test scores and academic performance, it said.

Caltech said the predictive power of assessment scores “appears to dissipate as students progress through the first-year core curriculum.”

“A consensus has developed among faculty and professional staff involved in admissions at Caltech,” Jared Leadbetter, environmental microbiology professor and chair of the institution’s first-year admissions committee, said in a statement. “That is, that numerous other key attributes of applications serve as stronger indicators of the potential for student success here.”

I find it more interesting that they made it a temporary decision and are still studying the issue. We’ll see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

And yet Caltech manages to do it. It must be a second rate engineering school since it doesn’t use an exam that tests basic algebra and exactly zero science or engineering concepts to choose who it admits.

To be fair, we don’t know whether or not Cal Tech has had any issues with test optional or not. We are only 18 months into this experiment.

to be fair, Cal Tech doesn't think they have any issues. In August they elected to go test-free (they won't even look at them) through 2025.

"The institute said in a statement the decision to continue the testing ban stems from a “rigorous internal analysis” of the previous seven cohorts of first-year undergraduates and their academic results. This encompasses students who matriculated before and after CalTech began test-free admissions.

Sticking with these policies will allow CalTech to keep studying links between test scores and academic performance, it said.

Caltech said the predictive power of assessment scores “appears to dissipate as students progress through the first-year core curriculum.”

“A consensus has developed among faculty and professional staff involved in admissions at Caltech,” Jared Leadbetter, environmental microbiology professor and chair of the institution’s first-year admissions committee, said in a statement. “That is, that numerous other key attributes of applications serve as stronger indicators of the potential for student success here.”

I find it more interesting that they made it a temporary decision and are still studying the issue. We’ll see.

sure, let's reconvene in 2025 and see what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

I know. I scored a 1540 as immigrant Laotian using pages from a SAT prep book that were hand copied in the margins of Italian store take-out menus. I would have stolen a copy if I hadn’t found them.

.
You could have borrowed test prep books from the library.

.

Our library had one copy that a couple hundred kids were vying for. So shoplifting really was the only option.

Isn't a SAT prep book like $15?
If you are that much flat broke, college is not a place for you.
get a job

Those who complain that they can't get a few SAT or ACT prep books are just those that want to invest zero effort into their learning. They will have same complaints after going into colleges. We got a bunch of prep books from a yard sale, 50 cents a piece. After use, they were given away to neighbors. You can find a lot on local craiglist as well. Like this, https://cnj.craigslist.org/bks/d/piscataway-sat-prep-books/7557155201.html
Too many ways you can get it cheap, if you give it a little of your attention. No one should have this as an excuse really. That you don't do it is just simply you don't want to do it, not because the tempirary acquisition of several prep books is the insurmountable obstacle.

Over 10 million kids live below the poverty line in the US. At least 5 million are probably capable of making good use of college, and at least 500k of them are test prep age. Show us where the 500k prep books can be obtained cheaply.

That said, this whole argument is moot. College Board offers free test prep online, and it's a lot easier for those who can't afford prep books to find free wifi than to find the books cheaply.

can't find a prep book, but finding the computer to access the free wifi for hours at a time is pretty darn easy.

Libraries have computers with wifi, and also test prep books. The library in my urban area actually had free practice ACT/SAT tests.

[Anonymous]

Hmm. Purdue’s Vice Provost of Enrollment management sits on the College Board’s Board of Trustees.

It's about helping the billion dollar standardized testing and test prep racket.

Big business.

Nothing to do with academics here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Please define "privileged?"

in the era of the internet all students who wants to prep for any test have access and available resources. Thank goodness for FREE internet resources for all of this.

Such a bubble. Not everyone has access to the internet - can they get to libraries for access the free resource? Are they able to self- study from Khan academy? Seeing things from a privileged vantage point. Where I grew up didn't have internet access until a few years ago...so don't tell me its easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Please define "privileged?"

in the era of the internet all students who wants to prep for any test have access and available resources. Thank goodness for FREE internet resources for all of this.

Such a bubble. Not everyone has access to the internet - can they get to libraries for access the free resource? Are they able to self- study from Khan academy? Seeing things from a privileged vantage point. Where I grew up didn't have internet access until a few years ago...so don't tell me its easy.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Please define "privileged?"

in the era of the internet all students who wants to prep for any test have access and available resources. Thank goodness for FREE internet resources for all of this.

Such a bubble. Not everyone has access to the internet - can they get to libraries for access the free resource? Are they able to self- study from Khan academy? Seeing things from a privileged vantage point. Where I grew up didn't have internet access until a few years ago...so don't tell me its easy.

+1

If they don’t have internet access, it would be impossible to apply to college.

[Anonymous]

"One thing I’ve heard is that it’s hard for admission officers to “unsee” bad scores. They may love a Black applicant with good grades and recs, but when they see the 1000 on the SAT, it’s just really hard to forget it. Then, they end up with fewer Black kids than they had desired in the class overall. If they never see the score at all, it’s a lot easier to admit the student."

I'm a first-gen Latino from a low-income neighborhood. I went to HSYP for college and top grad schools.

No Black or Brown kid is getting into a top school with a 1000. Maybe a 1300 if they've taken a very rigorous course load and done extraordinarily well. My own kid who is obviously also Latino but not first-gen and not low-income didn't get in even though they have whatever benefit legacy might bestow through me.

Your score has to meet their minimum threshold no matter how poor and brown you may be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"One thing I’ve heard is that it’s hard for admission officers to “unsee” bad scores. They may love a Black applicant with good grades and recs, but when they see the 1000 on the SAT, it’s just really hard to forget it. Then, they end up with fewer Black kids than they had desired in the class overall. If they never see the score at all, it’s a lot easier to admit the student."

I'm a first-gen Latino from a low-income neighborhood. I went to HSYP for college and top grad schools.

No Black or Brown kid is getting into a top school with a 1000. Maybe a 1300 if they've taken a very rigorous course load and done extraordinarily well. My own kid who is obviously also Latino but not first-gen and not low-income didn't get in even though they have whatever benefit legacy might bestow through me.

Your score has to meet their minimum threshold no matter how poor and brown you may be.

What on earth are you talking about. All the top schools are test optional now. No one has to meet any minimum score. There is no minimum score. There is no required test on which to get a minimum score. That’s the whole point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Test optional hasn't helped underprivileged kids, it just makes it harder on admissions staff.

Where’s your data on this?

There is a pre Covid study that found that test optional did not improve diversity at the schools using it at the time. It is referenced in the study discussed her last week which found that admission officers were struggling with comparing students at to schools.

+1. There is a long thread on this started last week on this subject.

[Anonymous]

Everyone will find all sorts of obstacles in life. If one can't even find a way to get some prep books for his learning, he obviously has no interest in doing it. Well, find something interesting to do, it's all our choice. No need to complain that other people did or did not work on prep books.