Purdue Returning to Test Required

[Anonymous]

It's KHAN, people. Salman Khan. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

I heard multiple college admissions officers say that test optional was creating the most difficulty in their ability to determine which underprivileged kids would be likely to succeed once they arrived on campus. The discussions were considering whether they should bring back tests. These schools said they have enough information without tests to choose among applicants coming from privileged backgrounds or from high schools that they are familiar with. All of these kids will likely do just fine and they can choose among them based on other parts of the application. They said the harder part was evaluating a kid from a small town school that doesn't typically have applicants to their college or underprivileged kids applying. For these kids, they want to have them on paper as part of their student community but really want to make sure that the kid will have the academic skills to succeed. And apparently the test scores really help with that. They are not looking for some stellar score, but alternatively, a score above some lower threshold.

This sounds all well and good, but c’mon - that’s not why you have so many posters on this thread saying hallelujah over schools not being test optional. They like tests because they have privileged kids with high test scores that probably wouldn’t be as high as they are except for their privileged circumstances, and yet they still think those test scores should trump everything else. They view test scores as a scalpel and not an axe.

I have “bad test taking kids.” I know this bc they took entrance tests in middle school and even with paid prep never did that well. But test optional doesn’t help them either as there is confusion as to what it means and it has inflated the test scores significantly. It only muddies the waters bc the story is less complete. I am for a return to testing - even though that means my kids will be limited in their options - bc it seems to make sense to have that data. Doesn’t the rest of the world rely on it?

This is us. Test optional doesn't help my "average" kid in the slightest. Her scores are FINE by normal standards. But there are a couple of schools she is looking at where I can guarantee the published average is just not true. It makes her think she can't hang, when I know she could.

But in that case, why not just send the score? If you think she can hang, let the college see the score and decide for themselves. It's not like they don't know the average score has gone up as a result of lopping off the bottom scores.

She will! But those escalating "average" numbers are freaking her out. Ok

Don’t send them! She will be rejected. The colleges love that test optional has skewed their scores. They want to keep the averages high so they look good. Yes, it’s ridiculous but this is why USNWR and the rankings obsessed folks have brought us. Colleges will likely know your kid is in their actual range but they will reject because her score will drag down the average.

This. Definitely do not send them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

I heard multiple college admissions officers say that test optional was creating the most difficulty in their ability to determine which underprivileged kids would be likely to succeed once they arrived on campus. The discussions were considering whether they should bring back tests. These schools said they have enough information without tests to choose among applicants coming from privileged backgrounds or from high schools that they are familiar with. All of these kids will likely do just fine and they can choose among them based on other parts of the application. They said the harder part was evaluating a kid from a small town school that doesn't typically have applicants to their college or underprivileged kids applying. For these kids, they want to have them on paper as part of their student community but really want to make sure that the kid will have the academic skills to succeed. And apparently the test scores really help with that. They are not looking for some stellar score, but alternatively, a score above some lower threshold.

This sounds all well and good, but c’mon - that’s not why you have so many posters on this thread saying hallelujah over schools not being test optional. They like tests because they have privileged kids with high test scores that probably wouldn’t be as high as they are except for their privileged circumstances, and yet they still think those test scores should trump everything else. They view test scores as a scalpel and not an axe.

I have “bad test taking kids.” I know this bc they took entrance tests in middle school and even with paid prep never did that well. But test optional doesn’t help them either as there is confusion as to what it means and it has inflated the test scores significantly. It only muddies the waters bc the story is less complete. I am for a return to testing - even though that means my kids will be limited in their options - bc it seems to make sense to have that data. Doesn’t the rest of the world rely on it?

This is us. Test optional doesn't help my "average" kid in the slightest. Her scores are FINE by normal standards. But there are a couple of schools she is looking at where I can guarantee the published average is just not true. It makes her think she can't hang, when I know she could.

But in that case, why not just send the score? If you think she can hang, let the college see the score and decide for themselves. It's not like they don't know the average score has gone up as a result of lopping off the bottom scores.

She will! But those escalating "average" numbers are freaking her out. Ok

Don’t send them! She will be rejected. The colleges love that test optional has skewed their scores. They want to keep the averages high so they look good. Yes, it’s ridiculous but this is why USNWR and the rankings obsessed folks have brought us. Colleges will likely know your kid is in their actual range but they will reject because her score will drag down the average.

This. Definitely do not send them.

This is the worst thing about TO, the Catch-22s. The kids with SATs higher than the average at their high school but lower than average at the college they’re applying to, who can’t get in if they don’t submit scores because the college won’t believe they can do the work, but also can’t get in if they do submit the scores because the college is trying to game the system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

I heard multiple college admissions officers say that test optional was creating the most difficulty in their ability to determine which underprivileged kids would be likely to succeed once they arrived on campus. The discussions were considering whether they should bring back tests. These schools said they have enough information without tests to choose among applicants coming from privileged backgrounds or from high schools that they are familiar with. All of these kids will likely do just fine and they can choose among them based on other parts of the application. They said the harder part was evaluating a kid from a small town school that doesn't typically have applicants to their college or underprivileged kids applying. For these kids, they want to have them on paper as part of their student community but really want to make sure that the kid will have the academic skills to succeed. And apparently the test scores really help with that. They are not looking for some stellar score, but alternatively, a score above some lower threshold.

This sounds all well and good, but c’mon - that’s not why you have so many posters on this thread saying hallelujah over schools not being test optional. They like tests because they have privileged kids with high test scores that probably wouldn’t be as high as they are except for their privileged circumstances, and yet they still think those test scores should trump everything else. They view test scores as a scalpel and not an axe.

I have “bad test taking kids.” I know this bc they took entrance tests in middle school and even with paid prep never did that well. But test optional doesn’t help them either as there is confusion as to what it means and it has inflated the test scores significantly. It only muddies the waters bc the story is less complete. I am for a return to testing - even though that means my kids will be limited in their options - bc it seems to make sense to have that data. Doesn’t the rest of the world rely on it?

This is us. Test optional doesn't help my "average" kid in the slightest. Her scores are FINE by normal standards. But there are a couple of schools she is looking at where I can guarantee the published average is just not true. It makes her think she can't hang, when I know she could.

But in that case, why not just send the score? If you think she can hang, let the college see the score and decide for themselves. It's not like they don't know the average score has gone up as a result of lopping off the bottom scores.

She will! But those escalating "average" numbers are freaking her out. Ok

Don’t send them! She will be rejected. The colleges love that test optional has skewed their scores. They want to keep the averages high so they look good. Yes, it’s ridiculous but this is why USNWR and the rankings obsessed folks have brought us. Colleges will likely know your kid is in their actual range but they will reject because her score will drag down the average.

This. Definitely do not send them.

This is the worst thing about TO, the Catch-22s. The kids with SATs higher than the average at their high school but lower than average at the college they’re applying to, who can’t get in if they don’t submit scores because the college won’t believe they can do the work, but also can’t get in if they do submit the scores because the college is trying to game the system.

I am in favor of TO for different reason (the inherent discrepancy in demographics that College Board seems unable to address) but I do agree with this. My daughter’s submitted to 70% of her schools. For the other 30%, her scores would have been fine in 2019.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

I heard multiple college admissions officers say that test optional was creating the most difficulty in their ability to determine which underprivileged kids would be likely to succeed once they arrived on campus. The discussions were considering whether they should bring back tests. These schools said they have enough information without tests to choose among applicants coming from privileged backgrounds or from high schools that they are familiar with. All of these kids will likely do just fine and they can choose among them based on other parts of the application. They said the harder part was evaluating a kid from a small town school that doesn't typically have applicants to their college or underprivileged kids applying. For these kids, they want to have them on paper as part of their student community but really want to make sure that the kid will have the academic skills to succeed. And apparently the test scores really help with that. They are not looking for some stellar score, but alternatively, a score above some lower threshold.

This sounds all well and good, but c’mon - that’s not why you have so many posters on this thread saying hallelujah over schools not being test optional. They like tests because they have privileged kids with high test scores that probably wouldn’t be as high as they are except for their privileged circumstances, and yet they still think those test scores should trump everything else. They view test scores as a scalpel and not an axe.

I have “bad test taking kids.” I know this bc they took entrance tests in middle school and even with paid prep never did that well. But test optional doesn’t help them either as there is confusion as to what it means and it has inflated the test scores significantly. It only muddies the waters bc the story is less complete. I am for a return to testing - even though that means my kids will be limited in their options - bc it seems to make sense to have that data. Doesn’t the rest of the world rely on it?

This is us. Test optional doesn't help my "average" kid in the slightest. Her scores are FINE by normal standards. But there are a couple of schools she is looking at where I can guarantee the published average is just not true. It makes her think she can't hang, when I know she could.

But in that case, why not just send the score? If you think she can hang, let the college see the score and decide for themselves. It's not like they don't know the average score has gone up as a result of lopping off the bottom scores.

She will! But those escalating "average" numbers are freaking her out. Ok

Don’t send them! She will be rejected. The colleges love that test optional has skewed their scores. They want to keep the averages high so they look good. Yes, it’s ridiculous but this is why USNWR and the rankings obsessed folks have brought us. Colleges will likely know your kid is in their actual range but they will reject because her score will drag down the average.

This. Definitely do not send them.

This is the worst thing about TO, the Catch-22s. The kids with SATs higher than the average at their high school but lower than average at the college they’re applying to, who can’t get in if they don’t submit scores because the college won’t believe they can do the work, but also can’t get in if they do submit the scores because the college is trying to game the system.

I am in favor of TO for different reason (the inherent discrepancy in demographics that College Board seems unable to address) but I do agree with this. My daughter’s submitted to 70% of her schools. For the other 30%, her scores would have been fine in 2019.

Blame the schools, not the college board. They have the ability to be use test scores and grades in a manner that leads to a diverse class but instead have decided to play this absurd game leaving 17 year olds to guess whether or not their odds are better with or without test scores. Total abdication of responsibility by the schools, and it isn’t even clear that TO is leading to increased diversity, or the most qualified urm/first gen students being admitted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Honestly I don’t believe you.

Yeah I’m Latina. Not saying you can’t have high expectations for your kids but some of this post seems rather trollish. Where is this poster from that’s she’s Afro-Latina and talking about Jim Crow?

[Anonymous]

Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Please define "privileged?"

in the era of the internet all students who wants to prep for any test have access and available resources. Thank goodness for FREE internet resources for all of this.

Yea, right, and that’s why the privileged kids still pay for test prep. We all know free prep isn’t the same thing. Beyond that, you’re also assuming that the underprivileged kids even KNOW about the need to/benefits of, test prep. I will tell you this, when I was growing up in a first generation household, no one told me - and I had no way of knowing - that test prep was a good idea. So it never occurred to me.

You’re living in a bubble.

On this point, the only difference between using a paid source vs a free source was making sure my kid was staying on schedule. My kid could totally prep on their own using books and online (and they mostly did this) but having a handful of appointments with a tutor made sure it got done. In the end, they decided to take one test one more time to raise an ACT sub-score and for that they did it all on their own. They also did their own prep using books and online for AP tests (when class wasn't AP).

Of course, your other points about knowing to prep, having parents (like me) pay attention to prep, having classmates who are prepping etc. are spot on.

Was the tutor free?

Didn’t think so.

No of course not - but I'm saying if I didn't pay for the tutor my kid would have done just as well. I just would have had to nag more.

BUT to the LARGER point - the fact that my kid has parents that even know that prep matters and have parents who did things over many years that are beneficial to learning is a HUGE benefit. Parental educational attainment is a huge predictor of child achievement. It's not an even playing field at all.

The place to fix this is not by admitting unqualified students into reach colleges. (And there will never be an EVEN playing field because achievement is also based on innate intelligence.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

I know. I scored a 1540 as immigrant Laotian using pages from a SAT prep book that were hand copied in the margins of Italian store take-out menus. I would have stolen a copy if I hadn’t found them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

I heard multiple college admissions officers say that test optional was creating the most difficulty in their ability to determine which underprivileged kids would be likely to succeed once they arrived on campus. The discussions were considering whether they should bring back tests. These schools said they have enough information without tests to choose among applicants coming from privileged backgrounds or from high schools that they are familiar with. All of these kids will likely do just fine and they can choose among them based on other parts of the application. They said the harder part was evaluating a kid from a small town school that doesn't typically have applicants to their college or underprivileged kids applying. For these kids, they want to have them on paper as part of their student community but really want to make sure that the kid will have the academic skills to succeed. And apparently the test scores really help with that. They are not looking for some stellar score, but alternatively, a score above some lower threshold.

This sounds all well and good, but c’mon - that’s not why you have so many posters on this thread saying hallelujah over schools not being test optional. They like tests because they have privileged kids with high test scores that probably wouldn’t be as high as they are except for their privileged circumstances, and yet they still think those test scores should trump everything else. They view test scores as a scalpel and not an axe.

I have “bad test taking kids.” I know this bc they took entrance tests in middle school and even with paid prep never did that well. But test optional doesn’t help them either as there is confusion as to what it means and it has inflated the test scores significantly. It only muddies the waters bc the story is less complete. I am for a return to testing - even though that means my kids will be limited in their options - bc it seems to make sense to have that data. Doesn’t the rest of the world rely on it?

This is us. Test optional doesn't help my "average" kid in the slightest. Her scores are FINE by normal standards. But there are a couple of schools she is looking at where I can guarantee the published average is just not true. It makes her think she can't hang, when I know she could.

But in that case, why not just send the score? If you think she can hang, let the college see the score and decide for themselves. It's not like they don't know the average score has gone up as a result of lopping off the bottom scores.

She will! But those escalating "average" numbers are freaking her out. Ok

Don’t send them! She will be rejected. The colleges love that test optional has skewed their scores. They want to keep the averages high so they look good. Yes, it’s ridiculous but this is why USNWR and the rankings obsessed folks have brought us. Colleges will likely know your kid is in their actual range but they will reject because her score will drag down the average.

This. Definitely do not send them.

This is the worst thing about TO, the Catch-22s. The kids with SATs higher than the average at their high school but lower than average at the college they’re applying to, who can’t get in if they don’t submit scores because the college won’t believe they can do the work, but also can’t get in if they do submit the scores because the college is trying to game the system.

Perhaps those kids shouldnt get it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Purdue is a strong no-nonsence STEM school. Being STEM school, you can't fool yourself with woke bs and expect real scientific discovery emerges by itself. You need best talent people to make it happen. MIT research has shown that SAT/ACT scores, although they are not everything, have a close correlation with students' academic success in college. We can't be deliberately blind. It's insane for colleges not to consider the test one of the important criteria for their admissions.

I think this is really behind it. It's a big engineering school. Some schools with engineering programs were TO last year but not for their engineering programs. Also, there was a minimum Math score required for consideration.

And yet Caltech manages to do it. It must be a second rate engineering school since it doesn’t use an exam that tests basic algebra and exactly zero science or engineering concepts to choose who it admits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of the previous posters on this thread are NOT privileged? Let me guess: none.

Oh please give me a freaking break! I am a black Latina who grew up in abject poverty with English being my second language. Even I scored 1520 on the SAT. I studied for the test with an outdated book from the library. I got my behind up every day at 5:00 a.m. and studied for an hour each day before school. It could be done. There are no freaking excuses!

I don't know about your household, but in my household my children are expected to score high on ALL exams and take rigorous courses. My child scored a 1540 on her SAT last year as a sophomore. She studied on Khan Academy because it was free. Heck, I just told my 9th grader this morning that I expect him to score over 1500 next fall on his SAT exam when he is a sophomore. This is how I roll in my house. Stakes are high and their brown skins will not be spared when racism comes knocking on their door. I carry the burden of deep pain for my children's future. Too many people suffered, died, march, protest, etc. for them to not to score high on their exams. Damn, my people are still fighting for human rights, voting rights, etc. Privilege no, not here in this house just high expectations and the history of Jim Crow on my kids' backs!

I welcome that universities are making standardized test a requirement. The insanity of test optional only hurts students and makes the college admission process dysfunctional. It is beyond time that the dysfunctional college admission process is abolished. My daughter wants to become an engineer and she is only applying to schools that require the SAT. Screw the test optional schools! I am so ecstatic that engineering schools are taking the lead on eradicating the nonsense of test optional.

STOP THE INSANITY BRING BACK THE SAT!

Thank you!!! I also scored a 1520 on the SAT back in 1991. I was ecstatic; I had prepared myself using a $20 book. I would have gotten one from the library if I hadn't been able to afford that. I'm Latina also (not the privileged kind).

I know. I scored a 1540 as immigrant Laotian using pages from a SAT prep book that were hand copied in the margins of Italian store take-out menus. I would have stolen a copy if I hadn’t found them.

.
You could have borrowed test prep books from the library.