the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it insulting that a woman who is highly educated will be willing to SAHM, to do all the housework etc. I wonder if this is also what they preach to their daughters? Yeah, I will pay for your college and grad school but please find a high potential husband so that you can be a good SAHM for him?

I’m not a SAHM for my husband. I’m a SAHM for me bc I want to be with my kids. I didn’t realize when I did well on my SATs and went to a good college that that meant I had to spend my day apart from my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be honest when my wife stopped working we estimated the first 60k of income was lost due to added expenses.

But it is more than that. Once my wife stopped working I could work late, join outside professional organizations, work longer hours. Be available. Not always as not necessary. But I was not the run out the door type.

Out of all my family and cousins my brother and I have the highest HHI with SAHM wives. I no longer make big money. But I was making 400k for a 15 year run that started when my kids were 6, 4 and a new born. No way could we manage that HHI with both working with 3 kids. Childcare, maid, take out, commute would have been nightmare and neither of us would have held a high paying job.

My brother has held down a 400k to 650k job for 23 years. His. Wife quit when oldest was 1.

This was our experience too. I (DW) fought to stay in the labor market and did so for many years with 3 kids but after I quit due to a health crisis our HHI tripled with one earner. That doesn't happen to everyone but I know a number of families where the sole earner's income shot up dramatically once the juggling act ended.

Same here. I became a SAHM and my DH was able to get more professional credentials and certifications. We had always kept our COL low and we were doing a decent job of saving and investing, so with my quitting work, we were still able to accumulate wealth on one hand, but also my DH's salary went up a lot.

With the pandemic and teens and DH working from home, the household has continued to work efficiently and smoothly because I am home and not doing an office job.

I don't really see how my DHs income could.get any higher. He's a surgeon and has a private practice. I actually enjoy working because I'd be alone so much if I didn't. We do have a wonderful nanny, as I'm also in medicine though I'm a nurse anathesologist. I have a pretty consistent schedule. My kids are now older and our nanny has transitioned into housekeeping amd driving the kids around. I have to say I'm honestly glad my life isn't hers. I get the best of times and get to scrap the grunt work. I don't really see much value in doing laundry, grocery shopping, and vacuuming.

NP here - this is basically me. I'd rather stay in 3-hour meetings or write code / reports than clean up toilets or mop. Even if we'd keep our weekly cleaning service, I know I'd be expected to pull more in terms of organizing and planning the household, and to me, it's already mind-numbing enough as it is. So, to me, WOH is much much more enjoyable than SAH. After working my a** off at MIT for 2 years to get a MSci, I can't imagine the highlight of my day being washing my H's boxer briefs.

NP. Most working moms in this country still can’t afford to outsource cleaning, laundry, etc. I’m a SAHM of 2.5 and 5 yo and we do have monthly cleaners for deep cleaning bc I don’t like that and it’s hard to do that stuff with kids. But laundry, grocery shopping, basic cleaning - I can do all that stuff with my kids and they think it’s fun, or at least they can be around me while I’m doing it and I can talk to them, see the funny things they’re doing, etc.

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter what work costs. It allows me to maintain my mental sanity and be a better mother vs. being home all the time. Maternity leave was seriously one of the lowest points in my entire life each time.

My salary is only slightly more than daycare for 2 was, but I never could have handled quitting when the kids were young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it insulting that a woman who is highly educated will be willing to SAHM, to do all the housework etc. I wonder if this is also what they preach to their daughters? Yeah, I will pay for your college and grad school but please find a high potential husband so that you can be a good SAHM for him?

I’m not a SAHM for my husband. I’m a SAHM for me bc I want to be with my kids. I didn’t realize when I did well on my SATs and went to a good college that that meant I had to spend my day apart from my kids.

But you do this already. They're in school from 9 to 4 and them have sports practice at least twice/week from 5 to 6 or even 7. They are gone almost all day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be honest when my wife stopped working we estimated the first 60k of income was lost due to added expenses.

But it is more than that. Once my wife stopped working I could work late, join outside professional organizations, work longer hours. Be available. Not always as not necessary. But I was not the run out the door type.

Out of all my family and cousins my brother and I have the highest HHI with SAHM wives. I no longer make big money. But I was making 400k for a 15 year run that started when my kids were 6, 4 and a new born. No way could we manage that HHI with both working with 3 kids. Childcare, maid, take out, commute would have been nightmare and neither of us would have held a high paying job.

My brother has held down a 400k to 650k job for 23 years. His. Wife quit when oldest was 1.

This was our experience too. I (DW) fought to stay in the labor market and did so for many years with 3 kids but after I quit due to a health crisis our HHI tripled with one earner. That doesn't happen to everyone but I know a number of families where the sole earner's income shot up dramatically once the juggling act ended.

Same here. I became a SAHM and my DH was able to get more professional credentials and certifications. We had always kept our COL low and we were doing a decent job of saving and investing, so with my quitting work, we were still able to accumulate wealth on one hand, but also my DH's salary went up a lot.

With the pandemic and teens and DH working from home, the household has continued to work efficiently and smoothly because I am home and not doing an office job.

I don't really see how my DHs income could.get any higher. He's a surgeon and has a private practice. I actually enjoy working because I'd be alone so much if I didn't. We do have a wonderful nanny, as I'm also in medicine though I'm a nurse anathesologist. I have a pretty consistent schedule. My kids are now older and our nanny has transitioned into housekeeping amd driving the kids around. I have to say I'm honestly glad my life isn't hers. I get the best of times and get to scrap the grunt work. I don't really see much value in doing laundry, grocery shopping, and vacuuming.

NP here - this is basically me. I'd rather stay in 3-hour meetings or write code / reports than clean up toilets or mop. Even if we'd keep our weekly cleaning service, I know I'd be expected to pull more in terms of organizing and planning the household, and to me, it's already mind-numbing enough as it is. So, to me, WOH is much much more enjoyable than SAH. After working my a** off at MIT for 2 years to get a MSci, I can't imagine the highlight of my day being washing my H's boxer briefs.

NP. Most working moms in this country still can’t afford to outsource cleaning, laundry, etc. I’m a SAHM of 2.5 and 5 yo and we do have monthly cleaners for deep cleaning bc I don’t like that and it’s hard to do that stuff with kids. But laundry, grocery shopping, basic cleaning - I can do all that stuff with my kids and they think it’s fun, or at least they can be around me while I’m doing it and I can talk to them, see the funny things they’re doing, etc.

+1.
I went to medical school, residency, and fellowship, and I still enjoy spending time taking care of my home and children. They are only going to live with us for so long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it insulting that a woman who is highly educated will be willing to SAHM, to do all the housework etc. I wonder if this is also what they preach to their daughters? Yeah, I will pay for your college and grad school but please find a high potential husband so that you can be a good SAHM for him?

I’m not a SAHM for my husband. I’m a SAHM for me bc I want to be with my kids. I didn’t realize when I did well on my SATs and went to a good college that that meant I had to spend my day apart from my kids.

But you do this already. They're in school from 9 to 4 and them have sports practice at least twice/week from 5 to 6 or even 7. They are gone almost all day.

Yea, if you’re talking about older school age kids. I have 2 and another on the way. My oldest is 5 and in morning PreK - she won’t be at school all day AND doing sports for several years. And by the time my youngest is at that stage I’ll have been home with kids all day from over 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be honest when my wife stopped working we estimated the first 60k of income was lost due to added expenses.

But it is more than that. Once my wife stopped working I could work late, join outside professional organizations, work longer hours. Be available. Not always as not necessary. But I was not the run out the door type.

Out of all my family and cousins my brother and I have the highest HHI with SAHM wives. I no longer make big money. But I was making 400k for a 15 year run that started when my kids were 6, 4 and a new born. No way could we manage that HHI with both working with 3 kids. Childcare, maid, take out, commute would have been nightmare and neither of us would have held a high paying job.

My brother has held down a 400k to 650k job for 23 years. His. Wife quit when oldest was 1.

This was our experience too. I (DW) fought to stay in the labor market and did so for many years with 3 kids but after I quit due to a health crisis our HHI tripled with one earner. That doesn't happen to everyone but I know a number of families where the sole earner's income shot up dramatically once the juggling act ended.

Same here. I became a SAHM and my DH was able to get more professional credentials and certifications. We had always kept our COL low and we were doing a decent job of saving and investing, so with my quitting work, we were still able to accumulate wealth on one hand, but also my DH's salary went up a lot.

With the pandemic and teens and DH working from home, the household has continued to work efficiently and smoothly because I am home and not doing an office job.

I don't really see how my DHs income could.get any higher. He's a surgeon and has a private practice. I actually enjoy working because I'd be alone so much if I didn't. We do have a wonderful nanny, as I'm also in medicine though I'm a nurse anathesologist. I have a pretty consistent schedule. My kids are now older and our nanny has transitioned into housekeeping amd driving the kids around. I have to say I'm honestly glad my life isn't hers. I get the best of times and get to scrap the grunt work. I don't really see much value in doing laundry, grocery shopping, and vacuuming.

I mean, isn’t your cushy lifestyle basically due to your husband’s high salary? If you’d married a teacher, you probably wouldn’t have been able to afford to keep your nanny on as a housekeeper. Most working moms in this country can barely afford childcare, let alone cleaners. This probably doesn’t apply to you bc I know nurse anesthetists make decent money, I’m reminded of an episode of the Double Shift podcast (feminist working mom podcast) where the hosts admitted that the only way they were both working was that their husbands made enough for them to afford childcare so they could do this podcast and other journalism work where they basically LOST money.

[Anonymous]

It’s pretty cheap for me to be sahm. I run with the jogging stroller everyday so no gym membership. I keep my kids home until kindergarten so no preschool costs and I find free or inexpensive forms of entrainment for the children like the zoo or hiking along the Potomac. I’m sure working moms can take many cost saving measures too but the expensive of childcare is astronomical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't matter what work costs. It allows me to maintain my mental sanity and be a better mother vs. being home all the time. Maternity leave was seriously one of the lowest points in my entire life each time.

My salary is only slightly more than daycare for 2 was, but I never could have handled quitting when the kids were young.

I think this is so personal. For me, maternity leave was a dream and returning to work was absolutely miserable -- quitting to stay home felt like a gift because it meant I got to spend my day doing what I wanted to be doing.

No judgment for anyone who felt differently, but this is of course why criticizing women for the way they make this choice is a fool's errand. For me, staying in my FT job felt like a burden and it was only when I became a SAHM that I felt I was living the life I wanted. And for PP, the exact opposite is true. We're both right, it's just that there is no one size fits all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be honest when my wife stopped working we estimated the first 60k of income was lost due to added expenses.

But it is more than that. Once my wife stopped working I could work late, join outside professional organizations, work longer hours. Be available. Not always as not necessary. But I was not the run out the door type.

Out of all my family and cousins my brother and I have the highest HHI with SAHM wives. I no longer make big money. But I was making 400k for a 15 year run that started when my kids were 6, 4 and a new born. No way could we manage that HHI with both working with 3 kids. Childcare, maid, take out, commute would have been nightmare and neither of us would have held a high paying job.

My brother has held down a 400k to 650k job for 23 years. His. Wife quit when oldest was 1.

This was our experience too. I (DW) fought to stay in the labor market and did so for many years with 3 kids but after I quit due to a health crisis our HHI tripled with one earner. That doesn't happen to everyone but I know a number of families where the sole earner's income shot up dramatically once the juggling act ended.

Same here. I became a SAHM and my DH was able to get more professional credentials and certifications. We had always kept our COL low and we were doing a decent job of saving and investing, so with my quitting work, we were still able to accumulate wealth on one hand, but also my DH's salary went up a lot.

With the pandemic and teens and DH working from home, the household has continued to work efficiently and smoothly because I am home and not doing an office job.

I don't really see how my DHs income could.get any higher. He's a surgeon and has a private practice. I actually enjoy working because I'd be alone so much if I didn't. We do have a wonderful nanny, as I'm also in medicine though I'm a nurse anathesologist. I have a pretty consistent schedule. My kids are now older and our nanny has transitioned into housekeeping amd driving the kids around. I have to say I'm honestly glad my life isn't hers. I get the best of times and get to scrap the grunt work. I don't really see much value in doing laundry, grocery shopping, and vacuuming.

I mean, isn’t your cushy lifestyle basically due to your husband’s high salary? If you’d married a teacher, you probably wouldn’t have been able to afford to keep your nanny on as a housekeeper. Most working moms in this country can barely afford childcare, let alone cleaners. This probably doesn’t apply to you bc I know nurse anesthetists make decent money, I’m reminded of an episode of the Double Shift podcast (feminist working mom podcast) where the hosts admitted that the only way they were both working was that their husbands made enough for them to afford childcare so they could do this podcast and other journalism work where they basically LOST money.

NP here - A nurse anesthesiologist makes around $250k base with seniority here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The biggest cost to us was time and flexibility. Our schedules were the time equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck. Any little thing (sick kid, flat tire, etc.), and we were in a panic. There was just no reserve.

Now I work part time, and I have periods of time that aren't already scheduled or dedicated to anything. This gives us both a little wiggle room.

Very valuable point.

A lot of people make these sweeping statements about WOH or SAH moms and the things is: it depends so much on your jobs, what other supports you have, your finances, etc.

My DH and I both had very time-inflexible jobs when we had our kid. It was painful. It leads to a lot of conversations that feel like they boil down to whose job matters the most, when really what you are arguing over is who can more feasibly leave work 30 minutes early or get their 30 minutes late, or take a sick day, etc. Negotiating that constantly is exhausting. And daycares are rigid about drop off and pick up, plus you have t pack up your kids whole life every day and follow all their rules... it's exhausting. Life got so much better when I quit and started doing a flexible PT work instead. No more conflict. No more stress over drop-off or pick-up. No more worry that so-and-sos boss isn't going to be happy about this sick day or whatever. It's a massive relief.

Often when I meet women who are adamant that mothers should work full time, it turns out that either they or their DH has the kind of work flexibility where they can work from home whenever they need to, or they make enough money to afford a nanny or on-demand childcare, or they have family nearby who can provide childcare or do daycare pickup with no notice. That's great! We didn't have any of that. The best thing for our well being was for one of us to leave our jobs and then work part-time as the child got older and started school. It was me because (1) I made less money (2) I had more options for PT work in my field (3) I actually really enjoyed being home with our DC, much more than my DH did.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution. It would be interesting if we had subsidized childcare and/or real workplace protections for families (that would keep parents from being penalized for things like leaving early to pick up kids or needing to take a day off to care for a sick kid). But we don't. I made the best choice for my family given reality, and I have zero regrets.

Well, yes, if there are two time inflexible jobs, the household can surely afford 50K for a nanny.

Wow, incredible ignorance here. There are LOTS of jobs with little to know schedule flexibility that don't even pay 50k. Most service industry jobs for instance. Lots of government or administrative jobs with very strict hours. You might think they are "flexible" because people in these jobs often work unusual hours, or don't necessarily work long hours. But even a Big Law partner has more flexibility than a mail room worker who has no choice but to show up for their assigned shifts. Or someone in the restaurant industry who must work the dinner shift. Or an elementary teacher who can't just shift their start time 30 minutes to accommodate daycare drop off.

But two of those jobs together and it can be really challenging. People of course make it work because they have no choice. But say one person has a 90k/yr government job with strict hours and good benefits. And the other person has a 40k/year service industry job doing shift work with little ability to choose their hours or adjust their schedule to accommodate a child staying home sick or needing to be picked up early. They absolutely cannot afford a 50k/yr nanny -- that's more than a third of their income. They can stretch to afford a daycare for around 20-25k, but that daycare will also have no flexibility, and will do things like charge $15 for every minute you are late for pick up.

For this family, having the 40k/yr parent quit and stay home, and living off of 90k, might make a lot of sense. The SAHP can help keep expenses under control, the child will probably receive better care than they would in the low-budget daycare the family can afford, and you never have to have an argument about who tells their boss they need to stay home or asks to leave early or come in late.

As usual, DCUM doesn't even consider the family in this example exists even thought this family is MUCH more common a situation than the dual-income family with an HHI of 300k who has any number of options available to them.

[Anonymous]

So everyone’s story is different. I worked with 3 kids until my oldest was out of FT preschool at which point even with before and after care, the school schedule was not conducive to Ft work. I held it together with some nannying help but then my mom got diagnosed with Alzheimer’s (only child and she was divorced) and my husband took a job with lots of international travel.

Motherhood is wonderful but it’s hard. If you have parents close by that can help out that is a tremendous advantage. If you have an understanding boss that helps. In today’s zoom world, more options of working front home help (you still need childcare of course but the luxury of throwing a load
of laundry in or cutting veggies while listening to a meeting is HuGE) some industries are better than others in allow for PT schedules. It’s also ok to quit bc it’s all too much.

I cared for my mom and my kids. After she passed I volunteered in my community (not all school related) abs at almost 50 I have just now entered a graduate program and hope that allows me to transition back to paid work. While I won’t earn as much as I did before, I hope there’s a fulfilling second act for me. I guess we see.

In the meantime, choices are tough and no one should judge another…and pls don’t judge yourself either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it insulting that a woman who is highly educated will be willing to SAHM, to do all the housework etc. I wonder if this is also what they preach to their daughters? Yeah, I will pay for your college and grad school but please find a high potential husband so that you can be a good SAHM for him?

I find it insulting that you don't think women who are highly educated should have the choice. My parents were like you. I no longer speak to them. I am so thankful my husband gave me the choice (and financially it didn't pay for me to work but he would have supported me if I choose to work) was I didn't realize it was even an option. I regret going back at all before quitting. I was miserable. Child care was as much as my take home and it was impacting my husband's job because I often could not leave on time to do the day care pick up.

It sounds like your husband didn't give you the support you needed at home, which is why you quit your job. Since you didn't need to work, why didn't you get a nanny instead of day care? You wouldn't have had to worry about doing day care pick up. Also, maybe your husband should have done some of the pick-ups, too.
It also sounds like your parents didn't help either. My parents would be livid if, with my PhD, I quit my job. (But, I understand your frustration, my parents didn't help us very much when our kids were babies. I thought about quitting then, too.)

My bigger concern is that the more often highly educated women, with graduate degrees even, quit to support their husbands and children, it makes it harder for women who stay in the workforce to get promoted because bosses will think that they'll promote moms only to have them leave.

Ladies, we need to get our men to do more of the heavy lifting!!! It may be too late for this generation, but let's raise our boys to learn to carry the mental load.

This is exactly the point. By volunteering to take care of home and kids stuff, SAHMs are keeping the traditions in place both at home and also for the ones in the office. That is why we still don't get paid leave, day care subsidy and other benefits as a society, because there is always a woman who can take care of these at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it insulting that a woman who is highly educated will be willing to SAHM, to do all the housework etc. I wonder if this is also what they preach to their daughters? Yeah, I will pay for your college and grad school but please find a high potential husband so that you can be a good SAHM for him?

I find it insulting that you don't think women who are highly educated should have the choice. My parents were like you. I no longer speak to them. I am so thankful my husband gave me the choice (and financially it didn't pay for me to work but he would have supported me if I choose to work) was I didn't realize it was even an option. I regret going back at all before quitting. I was miserable. Child care was as much as my take home and it was impacting my husband's job because I often could not leave on time to do the day care pick up.

It sounds like your husband didn't give you the support you needed at home, which is why you quit your job. Since you didn't need to work, why didn't you get a nanny instead of day care? You wouldn't have had to worry about doing day care pick up. Also, maybe your husband should have done some of the pick-ups, too.
It also sounds like your parents didn't help either. My parents would be livid if, with my PhD, I quit my job. (But, I understand your frustration, my parents didn't help us very much when our kids were babies. I thought about quitting then, too.)

My bigger concern is that the more often highly educated women, with graduate degrees even, quit to support their husbands and children, it makes it harder for women who stay in the workforce to get promoted because bosses will think that they'll promote moms only to have them leave.

Ladies, we need to get our men to do more of the heavy lifting!!! It may be too late for this generation, but let's raise our boys to learn to carry the mental load.

This is exactly the point. By volunteering to take care of home and kids stuff, SAHMs are keeping the traditions in place both at home and also for the ones in the office. That is why we still don't get paid leave, day care subsidy and other benefits as a society, because there is always a woman who can take care of these at home.

But there will always be women who genuinely prefer to stay home with their kids. And outside of the expensive city bubble (where people are more ambitious), that’s a lot more women than you might think. They don’t want daycare, paid leave, or their husband taking care of their baby. They want to stay home with their babies and young children. This is probably especially true for women in service jobs or other hard, boring jobs that are really the majority of jobs in this country. To me, there is a minority of highly ambitious women with jobs they love who want more childcare help, and they want every other mom in the country to sacrifice time with their children to help the ambitious moms achieve critical political mass.

[Anonymous]

I admire all those with successful one earner marriages. But this scenario left me in different shoes after 15 years of marriage. I was running a huge household with $1mm income from several rental properties, exH with international travel and autistic son. Yes, as I stayed home, my exH income tripled and our rental properties were fully paid off. He never noticed or appreciated who gave him this freedom.
Instead, just before selling his company for millions, he asked for a divorce and told me I wanted to become a multi millioner at his expense. He cheated for years secretly with a co-worker and told me I was nobody and she was a world known expert. The lady had 2 kids and never stopped working.
Just as I was hoping to get back to work, get a new degree to do something for myself after many years of hard unpaid home labor, I ended in a rush looking for ANY employment to hire a lawyer. My exH hid assets abroad.

Women - DO WORK! All these high earning husbands may be there with you for the rest of your life!