Best friend's husband is being ungrateful or are we wrong? WWYD?

[Anonymous]

You and Anna can still be friends but leave the guys out of it. And tell her that you’re sorry the gifts of money have become a sore spot for Mike but you understand it’s probably a difficult thing for him. Suggest that you stop gifting them. SHe can tell Mike that you will no longer be helping them so perhaps she and he should take a long, hard look at their lives and see if they can do anything to best use their education and work experience to get more income as well as ways to cut spending. The sooner you clear out of their financial matters the better.

[Anonymous]

OP I was in this very similar situation only it was a relative not s friend. It went on and on money here and there. It added up. Yes they and the family were in financial trouble.
Then I went for a visit. I saw how self indulgent they were buying things for themselves that I had been denying myself to pay their bills. It’s not my place to tell them how to spend “their” money but I felt resentful.
I didn’t say anything about what they spent but I stopped giving money. I simply said I have my own bills to pay and nothing more.
They still live in poverty but they find a way to get by. It’s not my business how and I don’t discuss it. The friendship remains but we have boundaries and we don’t talk about money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A few months ago, we discussed their finances so I could help them plan things a bit better. Between the 2 of them, they make $55K. They really don't do any extras except for the occasional 7-11 coffee. Kids go to an in home daycare and until recently they had an apartment. Once the lease ended, they decided to just move in with relatives to save money. They both have about $15K in student loans each.

I would help out because of the friendship and then obviously because of the kids. I have been paying the daycare bill for the past 3 months to take some of the weight off but now they are covering it because they don't have the high rent anymore.

Do you even have to pay for daycare if you only make $55k as a family of four? Doesn’t that qualify for a voucher?

[Anonymous]

Stop giving grown folks money.
Then- they can’t be ungrateful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are wrong to keep giving them money and he is wrong to lose his temper like that. Nothing good ever comes from such situations, he is insecure and you are controlling and weird for interfering in such a way in your friend's financial troubles. Your fiance was wrong to be so self righteous to Mike. In fact, your fiance was quite the a**hole in this situation by escalating it with his comment. Surely you can see that? Plus, why is your fiance helping them? You already combined your finances before getting married? Did your fiance contribute money to your friends? That is weird as well. Mike was wrong, but what is he supposed to do when your fiance attacked him? Clearly they know they are in a bad situation, what was the purpose of your fiance being confrontational? If he didn't' want to give them money, why did he give it then? Also, if he didn't contribute, and it was just your money, what the heck is your fiance's problem?

Are you seriously too dense to understand that when most people get married, they combine finances? So by OP spending "her" money bailing out this couple repeatedly, she's indirectly spending his money too. Or wasting it, as it were, on ungrateful jerks.

[Anonymous]

Leave the men out of the money conversations. Their egos can’t handle it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are wrong to keep giving them money and he is wrong to lose his temper like that. Nothing good ever comes from such situations, he is insecure and you are controlling and weird for interfering in such a way in your friend's financial troubles. Your fiance was wrong to be so self righteous to Mike. In fact, your fiance was quite the a**hole in this situation by escalating it with his comment. Surely you can see that? Plus, why is your fiance helping them? You already combined your finances before getting married? Did your fiance contribute money to your friends? That is weird as well. Mike was wrong, but what is he supposed to do when your fiance attacked him? Clearly they know they are in a bad situation, what was the purpose of your fiance being confrontational? If he didn't' want to give them money, why did he give it then? Also, if he didn't contribute, and it was just your money, what the heck is your fiance's problem?

Are you seriously too dense to understand that when most people get married, they combine finances? So by OP spending "her" money bailing out this couple repeatedly, she's indirectly spending his money too. Or wasting it, as it were, on ungrateful jerks.

OP isn't married to her fiance.

[Anonymous]

Only on DCUM is it somehow "stupid" "wrong" etc. to help a close friend, who could very well be closer than family.

Only on DCUM is it okay to insult and yell at two people who just bought you a car because of your feelings. But wait, that doesn't work both ways! The people who just bought the car have to stand by and just take it because GOD FORBID they have any feelings about the situation and las out as well. If Mike wants to yell and insult, he should keep that same energy while he walks his ass to the bus.

[Anonymous]

Only on DCUM is it somehow "stupid" "wrong" etc. to help a close friend, who could very well be closer than family.

Only on DCUM is it okay to insult and yell at two people who just bought you a car because of your feelings. But wait, that doesn't work both ways! The people who just bought the car have to stand by and just take it because GOD FORBID they have any feelings about the situation and las out as well. If Mike wants to yell and insult, he should keep that same energy while he walks his ass to the bus.

[Anonymous]

The parties involved and their faults:

Mike: Should not have lost his temper. Should not have been rude, should apologize. Likely feels quite powerless in the situation and very much dislikes the feeling of being indebted to OP. I imagine it made him more angry to get upset about this and have you and your fiance sit there cooly, seeming to judge him and then for your fiance to throw some kerosene on the fire. I think that Mike here is simply the camel who's back broke and exploded what was clearly a growing issue of contention.

Fiance: Least emotionally invested of every person in the situation yet responsible for the the escalation of the incident. Since he is your fiance and not your husband he is also probably inaccurate in including himself as a benefactor as you have likely not combined finances yet. I don't think your fiance behaved very well and I would be mad at him if I were you. But I also think he is right, you need to stop giving them money.

Anna: A mooch. She started a life she can't afford and isn't making very good decisions about how to get her life in line with what she can afford. She has allowed herself to become dependent on a friend for money and then assumed that she could involve another person (Mike) in that dependency. Anna needs to grow up and realize that this can't continue for the rest of your lives. She needs to become financially independent. She needs that for her own pride, for the health of her marriage and for the example she will set for her children. Clearly she has family that is willing to help, she needs to buckle down and figure this out.

OP: You have allowed yourself to become a benefactor. That has created a poisonous power imbalance in your relationship. Suddenly Mike cannot criticize you because you have done so much for them. That is corrosive. It means it is no longer a relationship that you all want, but a relationship that 50% of the people involved NEED. And clearly it is not totally freely given, as your fiance's comment shows. You ARE keeping track. You are so involved in their finances that you have been paying their monthly daycare bill for 3 months. For the same reason you can't become true friends with your parents until financial independence, you can't really be true friends with your friends unless you are financially independent, because if someone controls your purse strings, they have power over you. And power is not egalitarian which is what healthy friendship should be. Even here you cite your donations as proof of your moral high ground. You are being nice to a friend you love, but your kindness will destroy the friendship in the long term. Even if this weird power dynamic worked for you and Anna alone, it is NOT working for the two couples. It needs to end, and you need to stop viewing them as beneficiaries of your kindness and start viewing them as people.

[Anonymous]

His manhood was bruised and he sounds like a jerk, IMO. My father was this way. Growing up, he'd rather let us sit with our power cut off for a few days until he could get the money together than take a handout or loan from a family member or friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The parties involved and their faults:

Mike: Should not have lost his temper. Should not have been rude, should apologize. Likely feels quite powerless in the situation and very much dislikes the feeling of being indebted to OP. I imagine it made him more angry to get upset about this and have you and your fiance sit there cooly, seeming to judge him and then for your fiance to throw some kerosene on the fire. I think that Mike here is simply the camel who's back broke and exploded what was clearly a growing issue of contention.

Fiance: Least emotionally invested of every person in the situation yet responsible for the the escalation of the incident. Since he is your fiance and not your husband he is also probably inaccurate in including himself as a benefactor as you have likely not combined finances yet. I don't think your fiance behaved very well and I would be mad at him if I were you. But I also think he is right, you need to stop giving them money.

Anna: A mooch. She started a life she can't afford and isn't making very good decisions about how to get her life in line with what she can afford. She has allowed herself to become dependent on a friend for money and then assumed that she could involve another person (Mike) in that dependency. Anna needs to grow up and realize that this can't continue for the rest of your lives. She needs to become financially independent. She needs that for her own pride, for the health of her marriage and for the example she will set for her children. Clearly she has family that is willing to help, she needs to buckle down and figure this out.

OP: You have allowed yourself to become a benefactor. That has created a poisonous power imbalance in your relationship. Suddenly Mike cannot criticize you because you have done so much for them. That is corrosive. It means it is no longer a relationship that you all want, but a relationship that 50% of the people involved NEED. And clearly it is not totally freely given, as your fiance's comment shows. You ARE keeping track. You are so involved in their finances that you have been paying their monthly daycare bill for 3 months. For the same reason you can't become true friends with your parents until financial independence, you can't really be true friends with your friends unless you are financially independent, because if someone controls your purse strings, they have power over you. And power is not egalitarian which is what healthy friendship should be. Even here you cite your donations as proof of your moral high ground. You are being nice to a friend you love, but your kindness will destroy the friendship in the long term. Even if this weird power dynamic worked for you and Anna alone, it is NOT working for the two couples. It needs to end, and you need to stop viewing them as beneficiaries of your kindness and start viewing them as people.

Nice analysis! I agree with all points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few months ago, we discussed their finances so I could help them plan things a bit better. Between the 2 of them, they make $55K. They really don't do any extras except for the occasional 7-11 coffee. Kids go to an in home daycare and until recently they had an apartment. Once the lease ended, they decided to just move in with relatives to save money. They both have about $15K in student loans each.

I would help out because of the friendship and then obviously because of the kids. I have been paying the daycare bill for the past 3 months to take some of the weight off but now they are covering it because they don't have the high rent anymore.

Do you even have to pay for daycare if you only make $55k as a family of four? Doesn’t that qualify for a voucher?

A voucher from where?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Only on DCUM is it somehow "stupid" "wrong" etc. to help a close friend, who could very well be closer than family.

Only on DCUM is it okay to insult and yell at two people who just bought you a car because of your feelings. But wait, that doesn't work both ways! The people who just bought the car have to stand by and just take it because GOD FORBID they have any feelings about the situation and las out as well. If Mike wants to yell and insult, he should keep that same energy while he walks his ass to the bus.

The fiancé or OP could have responded saying Mike's outburst was rude because they were just trying to be helpful or something to that effect. The fiancé didn't do that, he chose to pile on about how generous they are by giving them money on other occasions. How is that the right thing to do. The husband was a jerk, but so was OP's fiancé.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would never give my friends so much money so many times. Once, maybe, but you've established a pattern of providing for two capable adults. I think its quite clear they're using you but whatever.

Tell Anna there will be no more discussing finances period. If she brings it up again, end the friendship.

THis is way harder to do than it appears. I don't think money woes come up in conversation point-blank. It sorta subtly sneaks itself in - "Ugh, Jenn, things really suck around here lately. Sorry I didn't pick up the phone before. Mike and I were arguing about the late fee from daycare and then that spiraled into why I charged my manicure to the credit card. I didn't care though. I am so pissed off right now. That stuiped woman from the Debt Collection Company keeps calling. I feel really stressed. WHat do I do? I feel so overwhelmed."

...see how there is allusion to money problems, money needed is just a part of regular conversation? The advice "don't discuss finances again" works in theory, but in reality it is hard to pivot the conversation when it becomes the elephant in the room.

No, it's not hard. You respond with "Oh, Anne, I'm so sorry you're going through all this. Why don't you come over and we can binge-watch [XXX] to get your mind off of it." Period. The end. You talk about her FEELINGS and not about her pocketbook. Help her with her feelings - not her pocketbook. It's VERY easy to do.