Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Is my whole marriage a sham of the patriarchy?" lol

What will I tell our children???

[Anonymous]

I plan on teaching my young daughter (who is in her 20s) that she doesn't have to be polite when someone is hitting on her and she wants them to stop. The woman in the coffee shop should probably say -- go away. That woman at the office should probably say -- stop bothering me. Would that be clear enough for the socially obtuse among us?

[Anonymous]

It's very hard because some (not most) women use this as a powerplay. To think anything else is silly and insulting to women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I plan on teaching my young daughter (who is in her 20s) that she doesn't have to be polite when someone is hitting on her and she wants them to stop. The woman in the coffee shop should probably say -- go away. That woman at the office should probably say -- stop bothering me. Would that be clear enough for the socially obtuse among us?

If your daughter is really in her 20s, she probably knows more than you do.

Calling people "socially obtuse" makes you sound like an asshole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

Before the Internet, maybe this is what you did. Jeff Bridges met his wife at work, and I think the story is initially she didn't want to be bothered.

I didn’t want to be bothered with my bow DH for a good 4 years, but we were friends instead. At no time did he come at me with his pants down during that time.
He made one pass while drunk when we first met at a party which, looking back I now cherish because that is literally the last time I’ve seen the man drunk and now I’ve know him intimately for 30 years!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I plan on teaching my young daughter (who is in her 20s) that she doesn't have to be polite when someone is hitting on her and she wants them to stop. The woman in the coffee shop should probably say -- go away. That woman at the office should probably say -- stop bothering me. Would that be clear enough for the socially obtuse among us?

Clarity is always good. It's better than expecting others to read your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is,[b] most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?[/b]

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

I was this gal way back when. When I was young guys would come over and express interest, tell me to smile and make all sorts of judgements and take up my time and mental space frivolously. To them I was an object to be considered like a gal who willingly signed up for the Miss America pageant.
The reality was that I was a PhD physics student and not a contestant in the Miss America pageant.
Non skeevy men can look at women as something other than objects for their desires of the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

Before the Internet, maybe this is what you did. Jeff Bridges met his wife at work, and I think the story is initially she didn't want to be bothered.

I didn’t want to be bothered with my bow DH for a good 4 years, but we were friends instead. At no time did he come at me with his pants down during that time.
He made one pass while drunk when we first met at a party which, looking back I now cherish because that is literally the last time I’ve seen the man drunk and now I’ve know him intimately for 30 years!

The specific issue was walking up to and saying hi to complete strangers in coffee shops, not demanding sexual favors. Women write here that they want to be left alone at Starbucks. But aside from online dating, the only way a lot of men ever become non-single is by approaching lots and lots of strangers. I struck gold once that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also want to clarify the coffee shop thing. This is not a case of a woman in a coffee shop, making eye contact with people who say hello. This is a case of a woman ina coffee shop, doing her own thing, and people interrupting her to say re is a difference in intent, and interrupting someone is NOT “jut being friendly”. You smile and acknowledge someone making eye contact. Friendly. You try to engage someone ignoring you? Not friendly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think most people would consider this to be "sexual harassment." It also fails the Dwayne Johnson test as he'd probably get interrupted all the time by people at a coffeehouse. Basically, there seems to be no objective test for sexual harassment.

Well times have changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

Before the Internet, maybe this is what you did. Jeff Bridges met his wife at work, and I think the story is initially she didn't want to be bothered.

I didn’t want to be bothered with my bow DH for a good 4 years, but we were friends instead. At no time did he come at me with his pants down during that time.
He made one pass while drunk when we first met at a party which, looking back I now cherish because that is literally the last time I’ve seen the man drunk and now I’ve know him intimately for 30 years!

The specific issue was walking up to and saying hi to complete strangers in coffee shops, not demanding sexual favors. Women write here that they want to be left alone at Starbucks. But aside from online dating, the only way a lot of men ever become non-single is by approaching lots and lots of strangers. I struck gold once that way.

No you can not do that any more. If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For most of history, women have expected men to "chase" them. The "you get to ask for a date once and then must never ask again" rule is a brand new, modern, invention. Young feminists are moving the goalposts and pretending like it was that was from the beginning.

For most of history, women have been the property of their fathers and then their husbands. They have expected to be sold off like property as part of a family economic plan. In the beginning, women didn't get to say no, ever, to their husbands. They were expected to say no to other men, but ultimately, those men could pretty much do what they wanted and then make amends to the women's father - not the woman herself. For most of history, women did not get to date. They did not get to move goalposts. They simply had to accept that their lot in life was to be married to someone they didn't choose, regardless of how amazing or terrible he was, and then have sex with him until they literally died in childbirth.

Don't give me this crap about how women have wanted men to chase them for most of history. For most of history, women have been PROPERTY.

[Anonymous]

If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

Conflict of interest. I'm sure it was before the Internet too.

[Anonymous]

You know I was watching that TV show the Big Bang theory the other evening. A lot of the stuff that the Howard character dies is actually kind of creepy. They give him all these lines where it actually sounds like he is sexually harassing the cute blonde lady. In our current environment, it sounds really off. But I could definitely see how someone who watch the TV show would think that this is how you flirt.

[Anonymous]

For example, on one episode he says to the blonde woman would you like to come over here and sit on my lap? That sure sounds like harassment to me!

[Anonymous]

Here's how I see it ...

Coercing someone into a relationship or sexual activity: Always wrong.

Seeking or engaging in a relationship or sexual activity with someone who works in the same place: Maybe legally wrong, maybe not. Likely against employer rules. Probably a risky move for a variety of reasons. Proceed with caution. Whether it's actually wrong as a matter of social norms is a gray area, depending on what each person wants and how it's communicated. Consider carefully whether it's worth the risk.

Seeking or engaging in a relationship or sexual activity with some stranger: Whether it's appropriate or violates social norms is entirely dependent on what each person wants and how they each communicate. No clear rules. What attracts one person might offend another. Clearly communicate intentions, and respect boundaries that people communicate.