Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also want to clarify the coffee shop thing. This is not a case of a woman in a coffee shop, making eye contact with people who say hello. This is a case of a woman ina coffee shop, doing her own thing, and people interrupting her to say re is a difference in intent, and interrupting someone is NOT “jut being friendly”. You smile and acknowledge someone making eye contact. Friendly. You try to engage someone ignoring you? Not friendly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think most people would consider this to be "sexual harassment." It also fails the Dwayne Johnson test as he'd probably get interrupted all the time by people at a coffeehouse. Basically, there seems to be no objective test for sexual harassment.

Well times have changed.

Exactly. The rules change and tend to be highly subjective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

Conflict of interest. I'm sure it was before the Internet too.

On second thought, if you are that hostile to a stranger saying "Hi", you need therapy. Remove yourself from potential contact with strangers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

Conflict of interest. I'm sure it was before the Internet too.

On second thought, if you are that hostile to a stranger saying "Hi", you need therapy. Remove yourself from potential contact with strangers.

So you’re going around and getting strangers indiscriminately, or only spending time on the ones you’d like to f*ck?

Again, do you see the difference? A 23 year old, obese male can likely sit in a coffee shop and chat with his gamer friends without incident. The 23 year old, cute blonde physics student, likely not.

If you’re also chit chatting with the guy, you have my blessing to keep on keeping on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1725 again. I don't see any meaningful difference between commenting on a male co-worker's new glasses (which you see as ok), and commenting on a female co-worker's new haircut (which I see as ok). Do you?

First of all, learn the abbreviations. DP means "different poster," so you're assigning someone else's views to me. Secondly, there is a difference between commenting "I see you got new glasses" which is what that poster actually said, and complimenting a female co-worker's new haircut. One is an observation, the other is a compliment, and complimenting someone's looks is a way of putting yourself in the position of validating the person, which is not your place at work. If it is in your job description to judge/validate the person, it's not on their attractiveness. Thirdly, I will take your refusal to answer directly and doubling down on "female co-worker's" as an answer that no, you do not compliment your male colleagues' haircuts. So you yourself do not think it's the same, because you do it to one gender and not the other.

What is the point of observing? "I see you got a haircut"...so? If you're not going to give a compliment, no need to make the observation. When people observe a change in my appearance and don't compliment it, I assume they don't like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

Conflict of interest. I'm sure it was before the Internet too.

On second thought, if you are that hostile to a stranger saying "Hi", you need therapy. Remove yourself from potential contact with strangers.

So you’re going around and getting strangers indiscriminately, or only spending time on the ones you’d like to f*ck?

Again, do you see the difference? A 23 year old, obese male can likely sit in a coffee shop and chat with his gamer friends without incident. The 23 year old, cute blonde physics student, likely not.

If you’re also chit chatting with the guy, you have my blessing to keep on keeping on.

Men try to chat up cute women, duh. And if you're offended by "Hi", you need to put yourself someplace where that doesn't happen. "Hi" is not sexual harassment .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine telling a co-worker "you look fit" - that seems too body-related. I absolutely will comment to a male co-worker if I think he's lost weight; but I'd never comment at all on weight to a female co-worker. If a female (or male) co-worker shows up with a new haircut ...

[pic here]

... then I'm absolutely going to compliment the new look (even if it's a bad haircut).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

DP, but why only women? Do you compliment men's haircuts? People (and I use the term advisedly, women do this too) really don't realize how often they default to talking about appearance with women. It's culturally ingrained. Clothes, "have you lost weight?!", hair, even just "you look nice today"; it's constant. Men don't get these comments so they think of it as a rare but appreciated compliment. Women get it all the time and the cumulative effect is that it's just a way that society defaults us to not serious or decorative, while men are considered substantive and vital.

Not "only women" by any means. Read my post again. I'm happy to compliment a male co-worker on his weight loss (but not a female co-worker). To be blunt, my general rule is that female co-workers only exist above the neck. I'll compliment their brains, their haircuts, their glasses. But I'd never give any indication I'm aware that they exist below the neck. By contrast, I'm willing to acknowledge and comment on a male co-worker's entire body - his weight loss, his tie, his shoes, etc.

I could be accused of differential treatment, but not in the way you're trying to suggest.

You shouldn't be doing this, either. "Wow, John, you were so fat before, but now you've lost weight and look fantastic!" Maybe he's really sick. You don't know, so don't comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

Ok, but no man in that coffee shop is going to get in any kind of trouble for saying hi to her. In which case, she is entitled to her opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

Ok, but no man in that coffee shop is going to get in any kind of trouble for saying hi to her. In which case, she is entitled to her opinion.

But the problem is that some women do get you into trouble over stupid things. I realize that they are the minority, but they are out there and the risk can't just be dismissed.

[Anonymous]

If men hadn't complete taken a crap on decency we wouldn't have this need to have black and white lines now. Gray area is where men couldn't handle themselves and constantly took it too far.

I don't think there is an objective test. It is kind of one of those "i can't define it but i know it when i see it' type of situations. Everyone's tolerance is different for what they feel comfortable with. A male coworker and i were friends and our relationship and inside jokes were much different than with me and another male coworker. You really need to know your audience and be respectful. I think keeping in mind, if my mom were here would i have this same conversation/interaction with her is a good starting point. Not perfect, but somewhere to start for those who can't seem to understand what basic respectful human interaction looks like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For most of history, women have expected men to "chase" them. The "you get to ask for a date once and then must never ask again" rule is a brand new, modern, invention. Young feminists are moving the goalposts and pretending like it was that was from the beginning.

For most of history, women have been the property of their fathers and then their husbands. They have expected to be sold off like property as part of a family economic plan. In the beginning, women didn't get to say no, ever, to their husbands. They were expected to say no to other men, but ultimately, those men could pretty much do what they wanted and then make amends to the women's father - not the woman herself. For most of history, women did not get to date. They did not get to move goalposts. They simply had to accept that their lot in life was to be married to someone they didn't choose, regardless of how amazing or terrible he was, and then have sex with him until they literally died in childbirth.

Don't give me this crap about how women have wanted men to chase them for most of history. For most of history, women have been PROPERTY.

+1. Husbands could force their wives to have sex, i.e. rape them, as an obligation of marriage. Marital rape did not start to become a crime until the 1960s. You're damn straight the goalposts are moving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you approach a woman, your intention will be perceived as trying to start a sexual relationship with her. Many women will find this threatening, disturbing and or disgusting. Think how many women you approached who you made uncomfortable or considered you a sexual harasser. You might not think you were, but you were.

Conflict of interest. I'm sure it was before the Internet too.

On second thought, if you are that hostile to a stranger saying "Hi", you need therapy. Remove yourself from potential contact with strangers.

So you’re going around and getting strangers indiscriminately, or only spending time on the ones you’d like to f*ck?

Again, do you see the difference? A 23 year old, obese male can likely sit in a coffee shop and chat with his gamer friends without incident. The 23 year old, cute blonde physics student, likely not.

If you’re also chit chatting with the guy, you have my blessing to keep on keeping on.

Men try to chat up cute women, duh. And if you're offended by "Hi", you need to put yourself someplace where that doesn't happen. "Hi" is not sexual harassment .

there you have it, folks. attractive young women have no right to be in public unless they are willing to be constantly hit on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If men hadn't complete taken a crap on decency we wouldn't have this need to have black and white lines now. Gray area is where men couldn't handle themselves and constantly took it too far.

I don't think there is an objective test. It is kind of one of those "i can't define it but i know it when i see it' type of situations. Everyone's tolerance is different for what they feel comfortable with. A male coworker and i were friends and our relationship and inside jokes were much different than with me and another male coworker. You really need to know your audience and be respectful. I think keeping in mind, if my mom were here would i have this same conversation/interaction with her is a good starting point. Not perfect, but somewhere to start for those who can't seem to understand what basic respectful human interaction looks like.

The problem is that there aren't black and white lines and never have been. And how is it reasonable to just say that you should "just know your audience." Again, this is women expecting men to read their minds.

It actually would be better if there were black and white lines, because as you can see from the thread, there is no consensus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

For most of history, women have expected men to "chase" them. The "you get to ask for a date once and then must never ask again" rule is a brand new, modern, invention. Young feminists are moving the goalposts and pretending like it was that was from the beginning.

for most of history, women haven't been able to ask men out without being considered "slutty" and asking a man out for a mere coffee has been interpreted (both socially and legally) as a license for sex without any further consent.

[Anonymous]

You don't have a right to expect _complete_ privacy in public. If you expect otherwise, you're being childish. And if you don't want to get hit on in a situation where other women have actually consented to start conversations, then the problem is hardly uniquely men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

Your post strikes a chord with me because I was just thinking this morning about how lucky I am to have ended up married to my wife. I had to ask her out 3 times before we actually went out on our first date. The first time, she gave me a "sure sounds great, maybe some other time" response, and the second time she said yes but then canceled a couple days later. After the send failed attempt, I assumed she was telling me no. But both male and female friends encouraged me to try again. To this day, I joke that she was trying to give me the brush off, and she insists she had legitimate conflicts.

Do you think I was harassing my wife? Should I have waited for her to ask me out on a date? Is my whole marriage a sham of the patriarchy?

I think you have an unrealistic view of how people communicate. You seem to believe that either (1) women are always crystal clear in understanding male intentions and in the messages they are sending, or (2) men are always crystal clear in understanding female intentions and in the messages they are hearing. I think most people are very poor at understanding each other and at making themselves understood.

If you really don't want to be asked out, then why wouldn't you say "No, I'm not interested in anything romantic with you"? No absolutely means no, but "sure sounds like fun, maybe some other time" doesn't always mean no.

Because when a woman says what you suggested, she is perceived as either a bitch or an arrogant ass to have assumed that you were asking in a romantic way. See coffe shop convo amd marital rape. Historically, we have not been allowed to say No in the way you describe. You should read some Deborah Tannen - women's ways of speaking are equally valid. Learn to listen to what we are saying.