Honest question for liberals about diversity/multiculturalism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in favor of real diversity. I am against "false" diversity that wants to make the world like a coke commercial. Real diversity knows that there are always challenges when different cultures come together, and that politeness is key to helping each be comfortable with the other. False diversity screams and yells alot, and takes away valuable time in the press in our minds with things like bathrooms and whether one should say native american or american indian, which should instead be focused on the real problems that poor people face, some of the real problems being culture specific (for example opium use amoung poor rural people of European descent).

These modern "diversity" screamers are like Jonathan Edwards screaming about sin. They make a lot of noise, but do not touch any of the real problems of our modern world.

The progressives aren't the ones yelling and screaming about bathrooms. That's been entirely the conservatives, who are as though they've suddenly woken up from a coma to realize that in all of their years sometimes the guy in the stall next to them in the men's room hasn't really been a guy, and now they are acting as though this is all new and sudden and thrust upon them to the point where they feel the need to rush out and lobby their state legislatures to pass laws and to have "bathroom enforcers" checking people for gender....

The Conservatives would not have reacted had it not been for Obama deciding that he needed to add to his legacy.

"OBAMA MADE ME DO IT!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

I know this message isn't going to come through, but what you're saying is that you're losing the right to be intolerant of gays and transsexuals without being called out on it. If your definition of respect includes not calling someone's intolerant opinion intolerant, then it is untenable to respect all people and all points-of-view simultaneously. Society cannot simultaneously respect black people and be unable to call out someone who says they don't like black people on their intolerance. It's not too far back in history that a lot of people used religious grounds to oppose inter-racial marriages.

Finally, with respect to affirmative action, I agree this is a debatable area. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that hiring managers' perceptions of the "strongest candidate" is colored by their own racial/ethnic/gender biases. Affirmative action seeks to overcome those biases. It does probably sometimes lead to weaker candidates being hired, but so, overwhelmingly, does unconscious bias. Also, affirmative action applies, legally, in a minority of hiring decisions. If private entities decide to engage in affirmative action, that is their choice and no one is forcing them to do it.

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is that there is nothing whatsoever in religion that gives you the right to be bigoted toward gay people, or to deny them goods or services. You may think they are sinners in your own eyes, and that's your prerogative but even in your own faith, if you are Christian, it's their sin it's not for you to judge on, and given they have done no wrong to you, stop acting as though they have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that there is nothing whatsoever in religion that gives you the right to be bigoted toward gay people, or to deny them goods or services. You may think they are sinners in your own eyes, and that's your prerogative but even in your own faith, if you are Christian, it's their sin it's not for you to judge on, and given they have done no wrong to you, stop acting as though they have.

Question: if a Muslim baker denies a gay patron, whose side does the liberal take?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

I know this message isn't going to come through, but what you're saying is that you're losing the right to be intolerant of gays and transsexuals without being called out on it. If your definition of respect includes not calling someone's intolerant opinion intolerant, then it is untenable to respect all people and all points-of-view simultaneously. Society cannot simultaneously respect black people and be unable to call out someone who says they don't like black people on their intolerance. It's not too far back in history that a lot of people used religious grounds to oppose inter-racial marriages.

Finally, with respect to affirmative action, I agree this is a debatable area. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that hiring managers' perceptions of the "strongest candidate" is colored by their own racial/ethnic/gender biases. Affirmative action seeks to overcome those biases. It does probably sometimes lead to weaker candidates being hired, but so, overwhelmingly, does unconscious bias. Also, affirmative action applies, legally, in a minority of hiring decisions. If private entities decide to engage in affirmative action, that is their choice and no one is forcing them to do it.

Well said. There continue to be contemporary studies showing hiring bias based on socioeconomic factors, such as "black sounding names" whether overt or unconscious so it's unfortunately still something that needs to be adjusted for.

[Anonymous]

^ And even with affirmative action, I don't think there is any part of it that forces employers to hire totally unqualified or unsuitable applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that there is nothing whatsoever in religion that gives you the right to be bigoted toward gay people, or to deny them goods or services. You may think they are sinners in your own eyes, and that's your prerogative but even in your own faith, if you are Christian, it's their sin it's not for you to judge on, and given they have done no wrong to you, stop acting as though they have.

Question: if a Muslim baker denies a gay patron, whose side does the liberal take?

Why is this a question? A Muslim baker has no more right to deny a gay patron than a Christian one. And by the way, I think this is a red herring because most of the things I've seen relating to this were either fake (i.e. Shoebat's viral videos purporting to call Muslim bakers - which were staged and faked) or gross misportrayals (the Muslim bakery that was asked about a wedding cake for a gay couple but said no - and it was because they don't make wedding cakes, period, whether gay or straight).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

1.) What, we should be tolerant of bigotry? As for this notion of liberal colleges, sorry but there's no such thing as "liberal calculus" or "liberal physics" or "liberal organic chemistry." But as to why conservatives don't get invited to colleges, perhaps it's because they want to tell us factually invalid things like "climate change is a hoax."

2.) I can't think of any particularly valid reason why we should be tolerant of bigotry and discrimination.

3.) Sorry but there is absolutely nothing in the Bible or in any religious teachings that says you can't or shouldn't bake cakes or cupcakes for gay people. Stop twisting religion as cover for your bigotry.

4.) Why should all points of view be respected? It's established, independently verifiable and scientifically sound fact that the earth is not flat and that it's more than 6000 years old and that man did not live with dinosaurs. Facts trump opinions. And sorry but scientific facts also trump old fairy tales written in religious books.

5.) Presupposes that somewhere there are these vast hordes of poor abused white job applicants who all got cheated out of jobs by minorities.

You have just demonstrated #2 above in your response - intolerance for people with opposing views.

And, I said that not all points of views should be respected. Check your comprehension. All PEOPLE should be respected.

PP asked what we are losing in the name of diversity. I have listed some of those things. Whether you agree or not is another issue.
And, as for #5 - it is a real issue. My DH lost out on a position because he is a white male. That was the ONLY reason. His qualifications were head and shoulders above other applicants, but because he was white and male he didn’t get the position. They were looking for “diversity.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

I thought we were talking about multiculturalism. None of these things have to do with other cultures. In fact the list is pretty American. Gays aren't from another country. We brought African Americans here hundreds of years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

I thought we were talking about multiculturalism. None of these things have to do with other cultures. In fact the list is pretty American. Gays aren't from another country. We brought African Americans here hundreds of years ago.

Diversity/Multiculturalism, as it says in the title.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

1.) What, we should be tolerant of bigotry? As for this notion of liberal colleges, sorry but there's no such thing as "liberal calculus" or "liberal physics" or "liberal organic chemistry." But as to why conservatives don't get invited to colleges, perhaps it's because they want to tell us factually invalid things like "climate change is a hoax."

2.) I can't think of any particularly valid reason why we should be tolerant of bigotry and discrimination.

3.) Sorry but there is absolutely nothing in the Bible or in any religious teachings that says you can't or shouldn't bake cakes or cupcakes for gay people. Stop twisting religion as cover for your bigotry.

4.) Why should all points of view be respected? It's established, independently verifiable and scientifically sound fact that the earth is not flat and that it's more than 6000 years old and that man did not live with dinosaurs. Facts trump opinions. And sorry but scientific facts also trump old fairy tales written in religious books.

5.) Presupposes that somewhere there are these vast hordes of poor abused white job applicants who all got cheated out of jobs by minorities.

You have just demonstrated #2 above in your response - intolerance for people with opposing views.

And, I said that not all points of views should be respected. Check your comprehension. All PEOPLE should be respected.

PP asked what we are losing in the name of diversity. I have listed some of those things. Whether you agree or not is another issue.
And, as for #5 - it is a real issue. My DH lost out on a position because he is a white male. That was the ONLY reason. His qualifications were head and shoulders above other applicants, but because he was white and male he didn’t get the position. They were looking for “diversity.”

With regard to #2 I never said I was tolerant of other people's views. Why should I be tolerant or respectful toward someone who is being abusive and intolerant toward someone for no reason other than race, gender or other aspects of mere circumstance or birth condition? What gives someone the right to judge others on their condition by mere fact that they were born in America, as white, Christian, and better-off financially?

I call BS on #5. How does your DH know for a fact that his qualifications were head and shoulders above all of the other candidates? How would he be privy to confidential HR decisionmaking? Did he see their resumes? Was he present for their interviews? I doubt it. How could he possibly know for a fact that they weren't qualified? More likely he's making assumptions, because nobody hires unqualified people based solely on diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

I thought we were talking about multiculturalism. None of these things have to do with other cultures. In fact the list is pretty American. Gays aren't from another country. We brought African Americans here hundreds of years ago.

And the Mexicans who the Trump supporters love to hate have been around and part of the Southwest for 500 years... probably far longer than when the Trump haters' own grandparents sailed over from Poland or Germany or wherever in the 1800s-1900s...

[Anonymous]

Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

In your opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

Our culture was lost. You may not like our culture, but to say that it is not lost is not true. And you took it by force, not by talking us politely out of it. And you are happy that you took it? It makes you feel righteous?