When a friend or family member is making a huge parenting mistake...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As I said, my parents are educators. I didn't say before, but I am a developmental neuroscientist (research, not patients) and my sister is a social worker in the foster care system. When you have clinical experience like PP and my family members, a bad idea like her SILs is not just an idea that sounds bad, as it is to us regular parents. It is a bad idea you have personally seen, and worked to counteract, the effects of--not just once, either, but dozens or hundreds of times. Your mind goes not to "what if it were my kid" as our normal-parent minds do, but to the faces of the many kids you've seen who were harmed by such approaches. PP is not objecting to daycare, as so many PPs think she is, but to the stated objective to "toughen up" a 2 year old boy who his parents think is too sensitive.

There's some major selection bias there, though. PP and your family members only see the children where X was done and things went wrong. They never see the children where X was done and things went fine.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am in a similar situation, OP. Except I was a total jerk and had a strong emotional reaction first. Now I want to tell this parent/family member the facts calmly but an hesitant to open the can of worms that I did when I was an asshole and screamed at her.


Not to hijack your thread, but does anyone have advice for me? Can I now approach the subject calmly just to get on the record?

Keep your mouth shut.

+1

Wow - I disagree 100%!!! If I thought my sister was doing something that would emotionally hurt my nephew I would explode at her - and then apologize but definitely restate my objections calmly later. I love my nephew and my sister!!! These are not some random strangers whose business I can butt out of - they are constants in my son's, DH's and my life.


I would definitely bring it up again, PP.

I'll be looking for your sister's post on the "Family Relationships" board. Probably something about her sister yelling at her for deciding to formula feed her son. And then, after they'd moved past it (so she thought!) her sister sent her a follow up email with links and "calm" explanation. How thoughtful!

PP here and no. My nephew is a very, very bright but sensitive and well behaved boy and only 23 months old. He has been home with a loving nanny who reads to him about two hours a day which he loves - and older books for four and five year olds. This is a smart kid. He is also small for his age. My brother and SIL decided to send him to a big, franchised daycare for 8 hours a day at least and fire his nanny "to toughen him up". I am opposed to everything about this plan but mostly his motivation. I am a school psychologist and consultant for the top DC private preschools and I know this is a mistake.


I was a jerk to lose it on my SIL when she told me. Now I do want to talk to my SIL and brother about this calmly. And we are close - my brother's family and mine - having kids the same age and shuttling between each others houses for holidays and often evening date-night care.

I feel I have to say something.

Please don't. You know this is pretty typical, don't you? Many, many kids go to daycare/preschool all day from an even earlier age. Except for a couple years when I worked part time, my two kids were in daycare/preschool all day from the time they were infants. They are now very well-adjusted, happy, social elementary age kids.

PP here and I agree 100% - both of my kids have been in daycare since they were three months old. Kids who start daycare as infants or before 18 months do great in daycare. Studies have shown that 18 to 20 months is the worst time to start a daycare program however if the child has been cared for in his home with a nanny or SAHP. My nephew is nearly two-years-old and it is a mistake to do it now. Especially if done to "toughen him up".

Please provide specific citations for these studies. I have looked at and read many of the studies (even the crap ones) on daycare. I have never seen any study (legitimate or not) that purports to show this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and thank you. I also feel that I need to mention it once, gently and calmly, and then let it go.

Sorry, but I have been around DCUM long enough to know what a huge debate this would set off!

If you think it would set off a debate here then there are obviously two accepted sides to the issue, both of which she is probably aware of. Don't mention it.

That was what I thought when I read op's comment above. I would also butt out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No way in h*ll would I attempt to tell a new mom that there was only one "right" way to parent and that was My way.

I know what works best for me and for my dh and for my children. That's it. Other parents are certainly just as capable to figure out what will work best for their families.

Sometimes we might have strong opinions about why we chose what we did. Sometimes we might even feel defensive about our own choices and feel the need to tout how wonderful our choice is to other people. Don't.

Quality daycare (or SAH, or grandparents watching the grandkids) is most absolutely a perfectly legitimate option. And it might be the ideal option for some families.

No one is disagreeing with you - especially the PP in question since both of her kids are in daycare. She is saying that daycare for a shy sensitive little guy who has been home with a loving nanny for his entire 23 months on the planet should not be thrown into daycare now just to toughen him up!!! I am so surprised that any mother would debate that!

I would assume that the parents "throwing" there much beloved child into full time daycare will also be working with the daycare to ease the transition. The child may blossom in daycare, you never know. It will be a totally different atmosphere and will take some time to adjust. But you don't fly at the parents with all of these ALARMS that they are damaging their child forever!!! That is not helpful. In fact, that is very harmful. These parents and this child would benefit from a show of confidence - not this doubting Thomas routine.

They have chosen responsible, reasonable daycare for their child. It's not like they are leaving their child alone in the playpen all day or dumping the kid off with a neighbor who is already watching 30 other little kids. Who knows..this daycare may have even dealt with kids like this before .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As I said, my parents are educators. I didn't say before, but I am a developmental neuroscientist (research, not patients) and my sister is a social worker in the foster care system. When you have clinical experience like PP and my family members, a bad idea like her SILs is not just an idea that sounds bad, as it is to us regular parents. It is a bad idea you have personally seen, and worked to counteract, the effects of--not just once, either, but dozens or hundreds of times. Your mind goes not to "what if it were my kid" as our normal-parent minds do, but to the faces of the many kids you've seen who were harmed by such approaches. PP is not objecting to daycare, as so many PPs think she is, but to the stated objective to "toughen up" a 2 year old boy who his parents think is too sensitive.

There's some major selection bias there, though. PP and your family members only see the children where X was done and things went wrong. They never see the children where X was done and things went fine.

um...ok? That's not news to me. I don't see your point.

To be clear, the educators in my family offered their opinion on Kumon once, and my social worker sister has never said anything about any parenting decision to anyone unless they ask (I ask her stuff all the time). Just cause someone is a professional doesn't mean they CAN'T MYOB. It just means the calculation is different. In fact the best conversations we have are about just the gap you talk about, bc my sister really does see the worst possible outcomes and so knows the wide range of parenting behavior that can be OK, and my parents see people who have the money to make optimal choices, and they know the difference between a kid who's not at their best in school and a kid who is thriving. It is usually my sister talking my parents down from their concern. Not any of us talking to the family in question.

[Anonymous]

In my experience offering advice accomplishes very little, no matter how egregious the parenting error. My sister obviously favored her 2nd child over her first; obvious to everyone but her. I had the audacity to point it out to her, and she didn't speak to me for a year (i didn't have kids at the time so i "was not qualified"). 20 years hence, she has NO relationship with her eldest child. In another instance, I was visiting an old friend and I saw her reach back and pinch her child in his car seat as a form of punishment. When she saw my look of horror, she said "you don't have kids so you don't know!" I went home and called CPS! She knew it was me b/c of the timing, and we never spoke again. Shortly thereafter I heard she was arrested for crimes that were related to her drug abuse habit.

[Anonymous]

I really question the judgment of any supposed school psychologist who can't control her own temper enough to calmly discuss any issue, let alone an issue that's likely to be sensitive like this one. Quite honestly, if I were the school psychologist's family, her temper tantrum would be enough to validate for me that I need to ignore her. I would not want to listen to somebody's opinion on emotional development when that person has so little in the way of emotional regulation skills herself.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Something that routinely comes up for me is seeing pictures on social media of people's kids buckled in their carseats the wrong way (loose straps, buckles around their belly buttons instead of at their armpits, etc). I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's seen these.

When you seem something like this, do you say something? Really could be a life/death situation if they are in a bad accident.

Is an incorrectly-installed/incorrectly-used car seat a parenting mistake?

The analogy would be an incorrectly-used seatbelt, which would then be what? A being-self mistake?

What a strange question. Why on earth does it matter? Regardless of what it's called, it's a mistake, that is made by parents, that could have terrible repercussions.

It matters because the topic of discussion is parenting mistakes. Is any mistake made by a parent a parenting mistake?

Um, yes? Part of the job of a parent is to keep his/her kid safe, and to know how to do it.

And of course, not every mistake made by a parent is a parenting mistake. If I forget to turn in a report at work, not a parenting mistake. If buckle my child in her carseat the wrong way, fail to lock cabinets where I keep cleaning solution, or put an newborn in bed with lots of blankets, those are parenting mistakes, because my job is to keep her safe.

Gee, no kidding?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am in a similar situation, OP. Except I was a total jerk and had a strong emotional reaction first. Now I want to tell this parent/family member the facts calmly but an hesitant to open the can of worms that I did when I was an asshole and screamed at her.


Not to hijack your thread, but does anyone have advice for me? Can I now approach the subject calmly just to get on the record?

Keep your mouth shut.

+1

Wow - I disagree 100%!!! If I thought my sister was doing something that would emotionally hurt my nephew I would explode at her - and then apologize but definitely restate my objections calmly later. I love my nephew and my sister!!! These are not some random strangers whose business I can butt out of - they are constants in my son's, DH's and my life.


I would definitely bring it up again, PP.

I'll be looking for your sister's post on the "Family Relationships" board. Probably something about her sister yelling at her for deciding to formula feed her son. And then, after they'd moved past it (so she thought!) her sister sent her a follow up email with links and "calm" explanation. How thoughtful!

PP here and no. My nephew is a very, very bright but sensitive and well behaved boy and only 23 months old. He has been home with a loving nanny who reads to him about two hours a day which he loves - and older books for four and five year olds. This is a smart kid. He is also small for his age. My brother and SIL decided to send him to a big, franchised daycare for 8 hours a day at least and fire his nanny "to toughen him up". I am opposed to everything about this plan but mostly his motivation. I am a school psychologist and consultant for the top DC private preschools and I know this is a mistake.


I was a jerk to lose it on my SIL when she told me. Now I do want to talk to my SIL and brother about this calmly. And we are close - my brother's family and mine - having kids the same age and shuttling between each others houses for holidays and often evening date-night care.

I feel I have to say something.

Please don't. You know this is pretty typical, don't you? Many, many kids go to daycare/preschool all day from an even earlier age. Except for a couple years when I worked part time, my two kids were in daycare/preschool all day from the time they were infants. They are now very well-adjusted, happy, social elementary age kids.

PP here and I agree 100% - both of my kids have been in daycare since they were three months old. Kids who start daycare as infants or before 18 months do great in daycare. Studies have shown that 18 to 20 months is the worst time to start a daycare program however if the child has been cared for in his home with a nanny or SAHP. My nephew is nearly two-years-old and it is a mistake to do it now. Especially if done to "toughen him up".

Please provide specific citations for these studies. I have looked at and read many of the studies (even the crap ones) on daycare. I have never seen any study (legitimate or not) that purports to show this.

It is not about daycare being good or bad - it is about optimal times in a child's development for introducing that care. 18 to 30 is the worst possible time and even daycare centers will tell you that. Seriously, take two minutes and google it.

- a WOHM whose baby has been in daycare since he was five months old. Like PP, I clearly am in favor of daycare starting before 18 months but not after. And especially not starting between 18 and 30 months. Sure the child will survive but why make him/her suffer and possibly develop lifelong abandonment and insecurity issues unless there is absolutely no other choice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really question the judgment of any supposed school psychologist who can't control her own temper enough to calmly discuss any issue, let alone an issue that's likely to be sensitive like this one. Quite honestly, if I were the school psychologist's family, her temper tantrum would be enough to validate for me that I need to ignore her. I would not want to listen to somebody's opinion on emotional development when that person has so little in the way of emotional regulation skills herself.

Then you have never been a sibling! I am sure trained diplomats and crisis counselors lose it with their own adult brothers and sisters! You are also probably not Jewish or Italian!!! We go off all the time!

[Anonymous]

BACK TO THE ISSUE:

Could you live with yourself if the worst happened and you'd said nothing? That is always my criteria. I would lose a friend before I clammed up about an issue I think could hurt an innocent child. MYOB doesn't cut it with me at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my experience offering advice accomplishes very little, no matter how egregious the parenting error. My sister obviously favored her 2nd child over her first; obvious to everyone but her. I had the audacity to point it out to her, and she didn't speak to me for a year (i didn't have kids at the time so i "was not qualified"). 20 years hence, she has NO relationship with her eldest child. In another instance, I was visiting an old friend and I saw her reach back and pinch her child in his car seat as a form of punishment. When she saw my look of horror, she said "you don't have kids so you don't know!" I went home and called CPS! She knew it was me b/c of the timing, and we never spoke again. Shortly thereafter I heard she was arrested for crimes that were related to her drug abuse habit.

Wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It is not about daycare being good or bad - it is about optimal times in a child's development for introducing that care. 18 to 30 is the worst possible time and even daycare centers will tell you that. Seriously, take two minutes and google it.

No. This is about parent's making decisions for their child. Have you ever made a 'suboptimal decision' because, for whatever reason, that's what you decided at the time. Would you appreciate a family member blowing up in your face because you give your kids chicken nuggets once a week from McDonalds and that's not optimal?

We are all making non-optimal choices all the time because we have competing factors to manage. This is parenting.

[Anonymous]

My great-grandmother's generation NEVER butted in. My grandmother has often told the story about a neighbor girl who had a known abusive father. He would get drunk and beat the kids and his wife. My great-grandmother (apparently) never let my grandmother go to her friend's house if the father was home or due home and always came up with other excuses like "Oh, I thought we would bake cookies here..." that would entice the girls to stay at her house. Never, ever would anyone ever report or call the cops on that bastard father - it just wasn't done. Nor would anyone ever talk to the wife/mother in that abusive house.

I do not want to live in THAT world. Say your peace, OP, and handle the consequences. Information is power. Let your friend/family member have all the information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is not about daycare being good or bad - it is about optimal times in a child's development for introducing that care. 18 to 30 is the worst possible time and even daycare centers will tell you that. Seriously, take two minutes and google it.

No. This is about parent's making decisions for their child. Have you ever made a 'suboptimal decision' because, for whatever reason, that's what you decided at the time. Would you appreciate a family member blowing up in your face because you give your kids chicken nuggets once a week from McDonalds and that's not optimal?

We are all making non-optimal choices all the time because we have competing factors to manage. This is parenting.

It wasn't the decision that made her blow up. It was the reasoning: to toughen him up. That's about parenting philosophies, not moments of weakness.