American Muslims, why do you support same sex marriage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be fair to the PP, *I* am the one who said there is only one path to God.

Based on my understanding of the Quran, the only time Christians and Jews are "cool with God" was before the final revelations of Muhammad. Who can fault Jews and Christians for believing what they believe before Muhammad came along? After all, Islam is simply an "expansion pack" and you can't fault someone for not playing a game when the game hasn't been released yet. Many Muslims twists this into the argument that as long as a Christian/Jew didn't learn about Islam, even modern day Christians/Jews, that's okay because they didn't know.

First, this contradicts with the versus condemning Christians/Jews who don't convert to Islam. Second, can you find any modern day Christians/Jews who have *not* heard of Islam? Substantially all modern day Christians and Jews have heard of Islam, have been told that there is one more revelation from a prophet called Muhammad, yet they rejected this knowledge as false. These Christians and Jews are going to hell according to the Quran.

First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair to the PP, *I* am the one who said there is only one path to God.

Based on my understanding of the Quran, the only time Christians and Jews are "cool with God" was before the final revelations of Muhammad. Who can fault Jews and Christians for believing what they believe before Muhammad came along? After all, Islam is simply an "expansion pack" and you can't fault someone for not playing a game when the game hasn't been released yet. Many Muslims twists this into the argument that as long as a Christian/Jew didn't learn about Islam, even modern day Christians/Jews, that's okay because they didn't know.

First, this contradicts with the versus condemning Christians/Jews who don't convert to Islam. Second, can you find any modern day Christians/Jews who have *not* heard of Islam? Substantially all modern day Christians and Jews have heard of Islam, have been told that there is one more revelation from a prophet called Muhammad, yet they rejected this knowledge as false. These Christians and Jews are going to hell according to the Quran.

First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Different PP here. She's undoubtedly referring to 3:86.

Props for the off-topic and unecessary swipe at the gospels. But while we're on the subject, you claim the gospels were distorted by men. Yes, it's true that Islam claims the Quran is God's own words as dictated to Mohammed, but the gospels never make such a claim. (I wouldn't want to be stuck with immutable "god's words" about some of the things in your book.)

But this begs a question: how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?

When people can merely cite passages from your holy book and you think they're "vilifying" your religion, maybe it's time to examine your religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Your careful choice of words here essentially validates verse 3:86, which says that Christians and Jews who have heard of Islam but don't convert are destined for hell. It doesn't seem accidental that you use words like "requires serious study" and "incumbent" to convey the point, from 3:86, that people who have heard about Islam are supposed to look into it further. Or what?

Speaking of word choices, we are being very careful not to mention the non-Abrahamic faiths, I notice. And what about well-behaved atheists?

You basically punt on the the rest, and that means you wave your hands about some key issues. First, you simply assert that anybody who studies Islam will "recognize its validity and truth." Well, maybe not. I've read the Quran cover to cover (although in English.) For me, the decision to reject Islam is not, as you frame it, a choice between "God's words" and an old or new testament that were recorded by men. The decision to reject Islam is based on the intolerance I saw in the book. I simply can't believe that any God would want people to relate to each other like that, on his behalf, and especially in the 21st century when so many different ethnicities and faiths and sexual preferences are linked together so closely by the Internet, media, and the threat of WMD. I suppose in your eyes, I'm going to hell.

You also punt on the second key point, which is, how much studying does God expect Christians and Jews to do? Will God forgive me because, being a working mother of two, I never got a chance to read the Quran in the original Arabic or to study the prophet's sayings and all the interpretive literature? Or am I doomed merely because I heard of Islam but didn't convert? You say you don't know the answer. But because you don't answer this, you leave open the clear possibility that God will send to hell even those Jews and Christians who heard of Islam but didn't pursue it any further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Your careful choice of words here essentially validates verse 3:86, which says that Christians and Jews who have heard of Islam but don't convert are destined for hell. It doesn't seem accidental that you use words like "requires serious study" and "incumbent" to convey the point, from 3:86, that people who have heard about Islam are supposed to look into it further. Or what?

Speaking of word choices, we are being very careful not to mention the non-Abrahamic faiths, I notice. And what about well-behaved atheists?

You basically punt on the the rest, and that means you wave your hands about some key issues. First, you simply assert that anybody who studies Islam will "recognize its validity and truth." Well, maybe not. I've read the Quran cover to cover (although in English.) For me, the decision to reject Islam is not, as you frame it, a choice between "God's words" and an old or new testament that were recorded by men. The decision to reject Islam is based on the intolerance I saw in the book. I simply can't believe that any God would want people to relate to each other like that, on his behalf, and especially in the 21st century when so many different ethnicities and faiths and sexual preferences are linked together so closely by the Internet, media, and the threat of WMD. I suppose in your eyes, I'm going to hell.

You also punt on the second key point, which is, how much studying does God expect Christians and Jews to do? Will God forgive me because, being a working mother of two, I never got a chance to read the Quran in the original Arabic or to study the prophet's sayings and all the interpretive literature? Or am I doomed merely because I heard of Islam but didn't convert? You say you don't know the answer. But because you don't answer this, you leave open the clear possibility that God will send to hell even those Jews and Christians who heard of Islam but didn't pursue it any further.

wow. Yeah, I'd like to hear some clarification on this.

[Anonymous]

^ clarification from 15:22, that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair to the PP, *I* am the one who said there is only one path to God.

Based on my understanding of the Quran, the only time Christians and Jews are "cool with God" was before the final revelations of Muhammad. Who can fault Jews and Christians for believing what they believe before Muhammad came along? After all, Islam is simply an "expansion pack" and you can't fault someone for not playing a game when the game hasn't been released yet. Many Muslims twists this into the argument that as long as a Christian/Jew didn't learn about Islam, even modern day Christians/Jews, that's okay because they didn't know.

First, this contradicts with the versus condemning Christians/Jews who don't convert to Islam. Second, can you find any modern day Christians/Jews who have *not* heard of Islam? Substantially all modern day Christians and Jews have heard of Islam, have been told that there is one more revelation from a prophet called Muhammad, yet they rejected this knowledge as false. These Christians and Jews are going to hell according to the Quran.

First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Different PP here. She's undoubtedly referring to 3:86.

Props for the off-topic and unecessary swipe at the gospels. But while we're on the subject, you claim the gospels were distorted by men. Yes, it's true that Islam claims the Quran is God's own words as dictated to Mohammed, but the gospels never make such a claim. (I wouldn't want to be stuck with immutable "god's words" about some of the things in your book.)

But this begs a question: how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?

When people can merely cite passages from your holy book and you think they're "vilifying" your religion, maybe it's time to examine your religion.

Excuse me? Props for the off topic? Don't reply and this thread will revert back to it's original topic, a marriage equality question for Muslims only. By replying, making false accusations, and asking even more questions, you keep this diversion going. Props to you, I say!

Whether Christians interpret the Gospels or Jesus' message differently from Muslims or whether they believe they rightly altered it is their perspective, which they are entitled to. The thread veered off topic and made the false assertion that in Islam, only Muslims may enter Heaven or earn God's grace. I am explaining this is wrong from the Islamic perspective using Quranic evidence. How then does the Christian perspective play into this? Christians may believe as they wish, alter their books as much as they wish. From the Muslim perspective it is wrong and some of the ones who did so intentionally will be punished.

And whether you would not want to be stuck with God's immutable words is also your prerogative. Did I deny you that somewhere in this thread?

And to answer your question, "how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?" is that when people use only certain quotes to try to prove an assertion but completely ignore other available quotes that may provide a more complete and accurate perspective, I say they must be out to vilify. Either that or they are completely and innocently unaware of the other quotes and if that is the case, I do apologize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Your careful choice of words here essentially validates verse 3:86, which says that Christians and Jews who have heard of Islam but don't convert are destined for hell. It doesn't seem accidental that you use words like "requires serious study" and "incumbent" to convey the point, from 3:86, that people who have heard about Islam are supposed to look into it further. Or what?

Speaking of word choices, we are being very careful not to mention the non-Abrahamic faiths, I notice. And what about well-behaved atheists?

You basically punt on the the rest, and that means you wave your hands about some key issues. First, you simply assert that anybody who studies Islam will "recognize its validity and truth." Well, maybe not. I've read the Quran cover to cover (although in English.) For me, the decision to reject Islam is not, as you frame it, a choice between "God's words" and an old or new testament that were recorded by men. The decision to reject Islam is based on the intolerance I saw in the book. I simply can't believe that any God would want people to relate to each other like that, on his behalf, and especially in the 21st century when so many different ethnicities and faiths and sexual preferences are linked together so closely by the Internet, media, and the threat of WMD. I suppose in your eyes, I'm going to hell.

You also punt on the second key point, which is, how much studying does God expect Christians and Jews to do? Will God forgive me because, being a working mother of two, I never got a chance to read the Quran in the original Arabic or to study the prophet's sayings and all the interpretive literature? Or am I doomed merely because I heard of Islam but didn't convert? You say you don't know the answer. But because you don't answer this, you leave open the clear possibility that God will send to hell even those Jews and Christians who heard of Islam but didn't pursue it any further.

Since you seem to be very interested in this verse….here is one explanation behind that particular verse (includes arabic for those who read and understand Quranic Arabic:

(3:86) How can Allah guide people who once believed, after they received clear signs and affirmed that the Messenger was a true one, lapsed into disbelief.73 Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

Explanation: This is a repetition of the statement made earlier, namely that the Jewish rabbis of Arabia in the time of the Prophet (peace be on him) knew, and sometimes even testified to verbally, that Muhammad was a true Prophet and that his teachings were the same as those of the earlier Prophets. (See for instance Qur'an 2: 89 - Ed.) Their subsequent attitude - namely that of rejection and opposition - was the outcome of prejudice and intransigence, born out of their centuries-old hostility to the Truth.

??????????? ??????????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ????????????????? ?????????? ??????????????
(3:87) The recom- pense for their wrong-doing is that the curse of Allah and of the angels and of all men shall upon them.
?????????? ?????????? ??? ????????? ???????? ?????????? ????? ???? ?????????????? ??
(3:88) Thus shall they abide. Neither shall their chastisement be granted nor shall they be granted any respite.
?????? ?????????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????????????? ? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??????????
(3:89) But those who repent and mend their ways shall be excepted for indeed Allah is Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
????? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ????????????? ????? ??????????? ??????? ????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ????????
(3:90) Those who relieved and have har-dened in their disbelief after once believing,74 their (pretence to) repentance shall not be accepted. Indeed such men have altogether strayed.
Explanation: They were not content with just rejecting the call to the Truth but stood in vehement opposition and hostility to it and spared no efforts in obstructing people from following the way of God. They created doubts, spread misgivings, sowed the seeds of distrust and engaged in the worst conspiracies and machinations in order to frustrate the mission of the Prophet (peace be on him).

Thus, 3:86 referred to people who had intentionally saw the truth of Islam, knew it, but still denied it to create division and enmity. Still, Allah said He will forgive them if they repent sincerely in 3:89, but He will not forgive those who feign acceptance or repent just when they know death or punishment is imminent.

[Anonymous]

Sorry the Arabic did not paste.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair to the PP, *I* am the one who said there is only one path to God.

Based on my understanding of the Quran, the only time Christians and Jews are "cool with God" was before the final revelations of Muhammad. Who can fault Jews and Christians for believing what they believe before Muhammad came along? After all, Islam is simply an "expansion pack" and you can't fault someone for not playing a game when the game hasn't been released yet. Many Muslims twists this into the argument that as long as a Christian/Jew didn't learn about Islam, even modern day Christians/Jews, that's okay because they didn't know.

First, this contradicts with the versus condemning Christians/Jews who don't convert to Islam. Second, can you find any modern day Christians/Jews who have *not* heard of Islam? Substantially all modern day Christians and Jews have heard of Islam, have been told that there is one more revelation from a prophet called Muhammad, yet they rejected this knowledge as false. These Christians and Jews are going to hell according to the Quran.

First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Different PP here. She's undoubtedly referring to 3:86.

Props for the off-topic and unecessary swipe at the gospels. But while we're on the subject, you claim the gospels were distorted by men. Yes, it's true that Islam claims the Quran is God's own words as dictated to Mohammed, but the gospels never make such a claim. (I wouldn't want to be stuck with immutable "god's words" about some of the things in your book.)

But this begs a question: how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?

When people can merely cite passages from your holy book and you think they're "vilifying" your religion, maybe it's time to examine your religion.

"One path to God" PP here. That comment further digs 15:22 into a hole: even by moderate interpretations of the Quran which allow for Christians and Jews to enter into Paradise under certain situations, that entry is dependent on the Christian/Jew being a Faithful practitioner. Clearly the Quran indicates that those Christians and Jews who practice their faith based on altered versions of the Torah or Bible are deemed Unfaithful by Allah - multiple verses of the Quran references this point. It's a frequent claim by Muslims that the truth, perfection, and beauty of Islam comes in no small part from the accuracy with which the Quran has been preserved. If Muslims believe the modern Torah and Bible to have been altered, then all of its practitioners are Unfaithful by definition as directed in the Quran.

A Muslim might argue now that the Quran also regard the Torah and Bible as "valid", and not corrupted. But bear in mind that the Quran was written in year 609, and there might have been an authoritative Torah and Bible at the time that the Quran recognized as valid. But it is the claim of modern Muslims that these documents are no longer faithful to their original versions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Excuse me? Props for the off topic? Don't reply and this thread will revert back to it's original topic, a marriage equality question for Muslims only. By replying, making false accusations, and asking even more questions, you keep this diversion going. Props to you, I say!

Whether Christians interpret the Gospels or Jesus' message differently from Muslims or whether they believe they rightly altered it is their perspective, which they are entitled to. The thread veered off topic and made the false assertion that in Islam, only Muslims may enter Heaven or earn God's grace. I am explaining this is wrong from the Islamic perspective using Quranic evidence. How then does the Christian perspective play into this? Christians may believe as they wish, alter their books as much as they wish. From the Muslim perspective it is wrong and some of the ones who did so intentionally will be punished.

And whether you would not want to be stuck with God's immutable words is also your prerogative. Did I deny you that somewhere in this thread?

And to answer your question, "how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?" is that when people use only certain quotes to try to prove an assertion but completely ignore other available quotes that may provide a more complete and accurate perspective, I say they must be out to vilify. Either that or they are completely and innocently unaware of the other quotes and if that is the case, I do apologize.

All righty then, you've given us an answer in the bolded part. You don't define what "some of them" would entail, or what constitutes "intentionally" ignoring Islam, and you say "punishment" instead of the obvious meaning that under Islam these people are going to Hell.

That you've said even this much, however, contradicts your blanket assertion that Islam is fine with Christians and Jews and will let them (if not other groups) into Heaven. When you say that Christians and Jews are "entitled" to their own perspective, you clearly don't mean that Islam gives them this entitlement, because as you just said, Islam sends "some of them" to hell. Rather, you mean that Christians and Jews are "entitled" to choose to remain in their own religions in exchange for what you (but not they) think will be "punishment" aka hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Your careful choice of words here essentially validates verse 3:86, which says that Christians and Jews who have heard of Islam but don't convert are destined for hell. It doesn't seem accidental that you use words like "requires serious study" and "incumbent" to convey the point, from 3:86, that people who have heard about Islam are supposed to look into it further. Or what?

Speaking of word choices, we are being very careful not to mention the non-Abrahamic faiths, I notice. And what about well-behaved atheists?

You basically punt on the the rest, and that means you wave your hands about some key issues. First, you simply assert that anybody who studies Islam will "recognize its validity and truth." Well, maybe not. I've read the Quran cover to cover (although in English.) For me, the decision to reject Islam is not, as you frame it, a choice between "God's words" and an old or new testament that were recorded by men. The decision to reject Islam is based on the intolerance I saw in the book. I simply can't believe that any God would want people to relate to each other like that, on his behalf, and especially in the 21st century when so many different ethnicities and faiths and sexual preferences are linked together so closely by the Internet, media, and the threat of WMD. I suppose in your eyes, I'm going to hell.

You also punt on the second key point, which is, how much studying does God expect Christians and Jews to do? Will God forgive me because, being a working mother of two, I never got a chance to read the Quran in the original Arabic or to study the prophet's sayings and all the interpretive literature? Or am I doomed merely because I heard of Islam but didn't convert? You say you don't know the answer. But because you don't answer this, you leave open the clear possibility that God will send to hell even those Jews and Christians who heard of Islam but didn't pursue it any further.

Well you may believe that reading it cover to cover in English is enough for you to decide. That is, of course, your decision. Alternatively you may decide it is better to learn it in Arabic, study the meaning of the verses, and taking classes in Islamic history. Many Muslims may say they do not need extensive study to embrace Islam. Some may say they needed to study it more before they understood enough to embrac it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be fair to the PP, *I* am the one who said there is only one path to God.

Based on my understanding of the Quran, the only time Christians and Jews are "cool with God" was before the final revelations of Muhammad. Who can fault Jews and Christians for believing what they believe before Muhammad came along? After all, Islam is simply an "expansion pack" and you can't fault someone for not playing a game when the game hasn't been released yet. Many Muslims twists this into the argument that as long as a Christian/Jew didn't learn about Islam, even modern day Christians/Jews, that's okay because they didn't know.

First, this contradicts with the versus condemning Christians/Jews who don't convert to Islam. Second, can you find any modern day Christians/Jews who have *not* heard of Islam? Substantially all modern day Christians and Jews have heard of Islam, have been told that there is one more revelation from a prophet called Muhammad, yet they rejected this knowledge as false. These Christians and Jews are going to hell according to the Quran.

First, which verse are you referring to that "condemns Christians/jews who don't convert to Islam? Are you referring still to 9:30? That particular verse does not condemn Christians/jews for not converting to Islam, it condemns those Christians/Jews who were responsible for corrupting the original Gospel or Jesus' message and misleading their descendants.

Many modern day Christians/Jews all know of Islam, just as many Muslims also know of Christianity and Judaism. Few Christians/Jews actually study Islam. Islam requires a serious study to recognize its validity and truth. In fact, Christianity requires a serious study to recognize that the Gospel was indeed altered significantly by people. Yes, it is incumbent for people to try to study Islam or at least their own religion if they have any awareness that it had been altered significantly. However, to what degree Allah holds such an expectation and how serious the punishment is for not studying Christianity or Islam is a determination that only Allah can make. As I said, intention is key. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, such as the ease of learning quranic arabic, the time available, etc.. That said, the Quranic verses make clear well meaning Christians and Jews will not be barred from Heaven or from God's grace. That is the point.

Different PP here. She's undoubtedly referring to 3:86.

Props for the off-topic and unecessary swipe at the gospels. But while we're on the subject, you claim the gospels were distorted by men. Yes, it's true that Islam claims the Quran is God's own words as dictated to Mohammed, but the gospels never make such a claim. (I wouldn't want to be stuck with immutable "god's words" about some of the things in your book.)

But this begs a question: how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?

When people can merely cite passages from your holy book and you think they're "vilifying" your religion, maybe it's time to examine your religion.

"One path to God" PP here. That comment further digs 15:22 into a hole: even by moderate interpretations of the Quran which allow for Christians and Jews to enter into Paradise under certain situations, that entry is dependent on the Christian/Jew being a Faithful practitioner. Clearly the Quran indicates that those Christians and Jews who practice their faith based on altered versions of the Torah or Bible are deemed Unfaithful by Allah - multiple verses of the Quran references this point. It's a frequent claim by Muslims that the truth, perfection, and beauty of Islam comes in no small part from the accuracy with which the Quran has been preserved. If Muslims believe the modern Torah and Bible to have been altered, then all of its practitioners are Unfaithful by definition as directed in the Quran.

A Muslim might argue now that the Quran also regard the Torah and Bible as "valid", and not corrupted. But bear in mind that the Quran was written in year 609, and there might have been an authoritative Torah and Bible at the time that the Quran recognized as valid. But it is the claim of modern Muslims that these documents are no longer faithful to their original versions.

I see no new points that you are making here. I already said before that Christians and Jews who are following the corrupted versions of their respective religions are not barred from entering Heaven. If they do good deeds and they did not know they were in sin, they will not be doomed to hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Excuse me? Props for the off topic? Don't reply and this thread will revert back to it's original topic, a marriage equality question for Muslims only. By replying, making false accusations, and asking even more questions, you keep this diversion going. Props to you, I say!

Whether Christians interpret the Gospels or Jesus' message differently from Muslims or whether they believe they rightly altered it is their perspective, which they are entitled to. The thread veered off topic and made the false assertion that in Islam, only Muslims may enter Heaven or earn God's grace. I am explaining this is wrong from the Islamic perspective using Quranic evidence. How then does the Christian perspective play into this? Christians may believe as they wish, alter their books as much as they wish. From the Muslim perspective it is wrong and some of the ones who did so intentionally will be punished.

And whether you would not want to be stuck with God's immutable words is also your prerogative. Did I deny you that somewhere in this thread?

And to answer your question, "how could you claim, earlier, that people who were simply quoting Quranic verses were out to "vilify Islam" when in fact you think these very same verses are "God's own words" and therefore perfect?" is that when people use only certain quotes to try to prove an assertion but completely ignore other available quotes that may provide a more complete and accurate perspective, I say they must be out to vilify. Either that or they are completely and innocently unaware of the other quotes and if that is the case, I do apologize.

All righty then, you've given us an answer in the bolded part. You don't define what "some of them" would entail, or what constitutes "intentionally" ignoring Islam, and you say "punishment" instead of the obvious meaning that under Islam these people are going to Hell.

That you've said even this much, however, contradicts your blanket assertion that Islam is fine with Christians and Jews and will let them (if not other groups) into Heaven. When you say that Christians and Jews are "entitled" to their own perspective, you clearly don't mean that Islam gives them this entitlement, because as you just said, Islam sends "some of them" to hell. Rather, you mean that Christians and Jews are "entitled" to choose to remain in their own religions in exchange for what you (but not they) think will be "punishment" aka hell.

I seem to be accused of white washing everything so let me be clear:

Anyone, be they Christians, Jews, polytheists who intentionally corrupts the messages of Gods prophets and knowingly rejected Islam even when they recognize it to be the truth will be put in hellfire.

Anyone, be they Christians, Jews, polytheists who do good deeds and err in their interpretation or practice of their faith, relying on their ancestors intentional corrupting of the message, will never be barred from Heaven.

Hope that settles it. Was I clear enough??

[Anonymous]

It's very clear, but it doesn't help your case. Exact same message, slightly different window dressing (with a dollop of sheer spite this time).

Your first para couldn't be clearer, thanks. You persist with the same dubious assumptions, which have already been challenged before, that
1. Anybody who studies Islam can't fail to see the truth in it (very debatable),
therefore
2. Jews and Christians who know Islam but continue to prefer what you arrogantly call their "corrupted" texts are doomed to "hellfire."

Seems pretty clear, with no room for any misunderstanding here!

Your 2nd para also dresses up another point you made earlier, with no more success than the last time you made it. You have returned to your argument that Jews and Christians who aren't already familiar with Islam, because all they know is what their ancestors/parents told them, will get into Heaven provided they do good deeds. But that's really a tiny loophole, isn't it? Somebody else already asked you how many Christians and Jews today have never heard of Islam. And you've already refused to define what it means to know Islam.

Please don't repeat these points with new insults. We got it loud and clear, and it seems like we're done here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's very clear, but it doesn't help your case. Exact same message, slightly different window dressing (with a dollop of sheer spite this time).

Your first para couldn't be clearer, thanks. You persist with the same dubious assumptions, which have already been challenged before, that
1. Anybody who studies Islam can't fail to see the truth in it (very debatable),
therefore
2. Jews and Christians who know Islam but continue to prefer what you arrogantly call their "corrupted" texts are doomed to "hellfire."

Seems pretty clear, with no room for any misunderstanding here!

Your 2nd para also dresses up another point you made earlier, with no more success than the last time you made it. You have returned to your argument that Jews and Christians who aren't already familiar with Islam, because all they know is what their ancestors/parents told them, will get into Heaven provided they do good deeds. But that's really a tiny loophole, isn't it? Somebody else already asked you how many Christians and Jews today have never heard of Islam. And you've already refused to define what it means to know Islam.

Please don't repeat these points with new insults. We got it loud and clear, and it seems like we're done here.

Different pp, but I'm coming to the same conclusions as this poster.