American Muslims, why do you support same sex marriage?
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Anonymous
There is no "case" to be made to you. No one is proselytizing, despite your suspicions and accusations. The only correction made was to say the original assertion stating only Muslims can go to Heaven in Islam is patently false. The Quranic verse that clearly showed it was a false statement was provided. The assumption that anyone who studies islam diligently with a sincere and open heart will see the truthfulness of it is the general Muslim assumption. The assumption that some Christians follow an altered (or corrupted) version of Jesus' message is also a Muslim belief. Why do you feel the need to be in agreement with Muslim assumptions or beliefs if you aren't Muslim? I'm not speaking from a place of arrogance; it's simply what my holy book states and for Muslims it is the word of God Himself. I think a little bit of research on your part will show that the Bible has, in fact, been altered. |
Anonymous
You can't be serious. The Quran clearly states that those who follow corrupted versions of Torah and Bible are Unfaithful and therefore will go to hell. Even if this point is in dispute, Christians don't believe salvation can be obtained through doing good deeds and being sin free and in fact Christian theology teaches that all people are sinners - they know this they are sinners, and they know they cannot be redeemed by doing good, with redemption and salvation only possible by accepting Jesus as their savior. So if your standard of being doomed to hell requires simply that Christians know that they are in sin, that means *all* Christians are going to hell. |
Anonymous
Well, that's just it, isn't it? What's the standard? What does Islam require? Is an English translation of the Quran deemed a "corrupted" version? There are so many different versions, and at least two of which are referenced in this thread as being authoritative, with many more different translations being listed previously for one verse, each with slightly differing meanings and implications. We are talking about the quality of ever lasting life here, what else can possibly be more important? If learning the Quran in Arabic is necessary, people should know this; if not, then is studying an imperfect interpretation of the Quran also okay? Since the Abrahamic God is authoritarian in nature, it's not up to humans to decide this. |
Anonymous
I'm perfectly serious. It shouldn't be in dispute because it's in black and white in the Quranic verse. So I publish the Quranic verse yet again: Quran 2:62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Quran 5:69: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve Quran 21:94: Whoever works any act of righteousness and has faith,- His endeavour will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favour. As for being "sin-free", I don't think I ever said the Quran expects people to be sin free, did I? I said that in Islam, intention is key. Unintentional sinful acts may be forgiven in Islam. Intentional sins will incur punishments but if people repent sincerely, they will still be forgiven. The individual is expected to try to reflect upon his actions in life, learn from his behavior, and show love for mankind by doing good deeds. This is the way to God's grace. And the Muslim is required to love not only Jesus, but all prophets, because they all delivered this same message. |
Anonymous
Are you asking for yourself? If you are sincerely interested in learning about what the standard is, there are individuals who are far more knowledgeable. Contact Imam Magid at (703) 404-2221. He has worked with the Department of Homeland Security. Or you may contact Imam Chebli at (732) 329-2400. He's known by the House of Representatives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i8HeDEq6_w You may have to leave messages for these imams, but they do return phone calls. Learning the Quran in Arabic is not necessary for everyone, but it certainly helps to provide a much better understanding. |
Anonymous
2:62 very clearly talks only about Jews and Christians *BEFORE MOHAMMAD* came along. 5:69 is also similar to 2:62 in only referring to Jews and Christians before Mohammad's revelations: Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. The rest of that chapter goes on to talk about what happens to Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam: hellfire, no paradise. 21:94 is again preceded by a bunch of Jewish and Christian examples where God rewarded people like Noah, meaning it was referencing people who believed *in their time* before Muhammad. You can then argue, that God will apply this rule to believers after Muhammad came along as well, but here the Quran is very clear as well: They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. As you can see, anyone who maintains the concept of the holy trinity after Muhammad came along is not a believer. |
Anonymous
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No. It is very clear in the Quran that Allah takes intentionality into account. How do we know that in Islam Allah takes intentionality into account when determining punishment? From this Quranic verse (I have included several translations of this verse): Sura Al Imran verse 135 Pickthall version: And those who, when they do an evil thing or wrong themselves, remember Allah and implore forgiveness for their sins--Who forgiveth sins save Allah only?--and will not knowingly repeat (the wrong) they did. Asad version: and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done. Malik version: who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Yusuf Ali version: And those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind and ask for forgiveness for their sins and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. Thus, Allah is not going to punish Christians who embrace trinity if they embrace trinity with absolutely no understanding of it's wrongfulness. This verse shows forgiveness is available for anyone who committed sins unknowingly. Allah is not unfair or unjust. |
Anonymous
The question of "how much" people who have heard of Islam need to study it is a red herring. If you've heard of Islam and don't convert, you're going to Hell. Why? Because Islam sets up a Catch 22. 1. If you've heard of Islam, you need to study it, period. We can quibble about whether you need to learn Arabic, but the bottom line is that the 99% of people have heard of Islam, and these 99% therefore need to study Islam. 2. Once you study Islam and hear its message, if you reject Islam's message, you're going straight to hell. The Quran is extremely clear on this point: anybody who knows and rejects the Quran's message is going straight to hell. So in this day and age, when 99% of people have heard of Islam, this means that 99% of Christians and Jews (and Hindus, Shiites, Yazidis and Atheists) face Islam's Catch 22. If they choose the wrong path, then they are going to Hell. Which opens the door to second-class status for these groups. 2:14's posts always include clear, if not obvious, allusions to this. You have to know what to look for in 2:14's posts, because she's not going to spell it out for you. If you reread her posts, however, she always includes reference words, including in her "good intentions" post at 2:14 where she uses words like "unknowingly" and "absolutely no understanding." |
Anonymous
Are you a theologian? Because these verses clearly apply to Muslims, but their applicability to non-Muslims seems a little doubtful. In fact, it seems like a non-Muslim's "wrongdoing" is to have rejected Islam, and the only possible remedy is for them to accept Islam instead of "persisting" in what Islam arrogantly claims is the error of their own faiths. In fact, how could Allah grant forgiveness to people who persist in rejecting Islam--he doesnt, and the Quran's other verses are unambiguous about how people who know Islam's tenets and reject them are going to Hell. So I don't find this post persuasive. |
Anonymous
I wasn't pleased initially when I saw this thread was being hijacked, but I feel this thread has actually morphed into, quite possibly, a useful discussion for anyone who wishes to investigate Christianity or Islam. I had no intention to proselytize (not that I think it's wrong to proselytize on DCUM if anyone wants to do it), but if it results in people seeking more information about Islam, it has resulted in something good. To answer your question, no, I am not a theologian. Nor does one need to be to have a general understanding about their own faith and this is my faith. Sura Al Imran does not only apply to Muslims. How did you come to this conclusion? Islam is a religion of peace. The more you study the Quran in depth, the more you realize it is infinitely just and reasonable. If you are sincerely curious about certain points, I'm happy to share my knowledge with you. My knowledge will never be as complete as an imam or scholar's, however. So consider calling the imams whose contact information I provided. They are readily available to the public. Now, getting back to what Sura Al Imran verse 135 is about and who it was intended for…here is a great article from Muslimmatters.org. (http://muslimmatters.org/2011/08/23/yasir-qadhi-ramadan-reminder-surah-ale-‘imran-v-133-135/) I have boldfaced the sections that would be of particular interest to you, to show you Imran was actually Mary's maternal grandfather, and the verses 135-6 are about forgiveness, who will enter Heaven, and how they can get into Heaven. It's not what you assert at all. This is why you should research and investigate Islam before publishing. Yasir Qadhi | Ramadan Reminder: S?rah ?le-‘Imr?n (v. 133-135) Dr. Yasir Qadhi August 23, 2011 5 Comments Link to all Ramadan 2011 posts Lecture by Yasir Qadhi | Transcribed by Sameera This lecture is brought to you by the Memphis Islamic Center (MIC). For more information about MIC, please visit www.memphisislamiccenter.org We are reciting S?rah ?le-'Imr?n which is the third s?rah in the Qur'?n and the second longest s?rah in the Qur'?n. Our Prophet Muhammad (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) has paired this s?rah with S?rat'l-Baqarah. The Prophet (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, “Recite Baqarah and ?le-'Imr?n because they will intercede on the Day of Judgment for those who recite them.” He (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, “When you recite Baqarah and ?le-'Imr?n, they will come on the Day of Judgment as if they are two large clouds and intercede.” Clouds here mean that which is full of good and full of benefit. Baqarah and ?le-'Imr?n are very similar to one another. The reason for this is because ?le-'Imr?n was also revealed in the same period as Baqarah. ?le-'Imr?n was revealed in the second and third year of the hijrah, and most of Baqarah was revealed in the first and second year of the hijrah. The stories, themes and styles are very similar except that in Baqarah the primary emphasis in stories is on Bani Isr?'?l, and in ?le-'Imr?n the primary emphasis in stories is on Jesus Christ and his disciples. Otherwise, the motifs and themes are very similar. Baqarah deals a little bit with Badr, and ?le-'Imr?n deals with Uhud. There are a lot of other parallels between the two. The name ?le-'Imr?n comes from the family of 'Imr?n. This phrase occurs in the second page of S?rah ?le-'Imr?n. All?h says, “All?h has chosen ?dam, N??, the family of Ibr?h?m, and the family of 'Imr?n over all of the world.” These four individuals have been chosen by All?h. ?dam is the father of all prophets. N?? is called the second ?dam because all of humanity after N?? comes from N??. All?h destroyed everybody in the flood except for N?? and his daughters and sons-in-law and from them, man regenerated. Ibr?h?m was the father of all future prophets. No prophet came except that he came from his progeny. 'Imr?n is the maternal grandfather of '?sa ibn Maryam. Maryam is the daughter of 'Imr?n. All?h says the family of 'Imr?n, meaning Maryam and Jesus. All?h has chosen these four above humanity. This shows us that the family of 'Imr?n is indeed a family that rivals the others who have been mentioned. In today's short kh?tirah, I want to shed a little bit of light on three lines that our shaykh recited in one rak'ah, which are a beautiful summary of what it means to be a believer. All?h said in the Qur'?n, “Race with one another to forgiveness that your Lord has prepared and a Paradise whose width is equivalent to the heavens and the earth. It has been prepared for those who are righteous.” In this verse, All?h tells us a number of things. First and foremost, Jannah and All?h's maghfirah are waiting at the end as a prize. They are already there; Jannah is not something that has to be created. As we speak, there is Jannah, and it is there for the taking by whoever wins the race. “All of you should race one another to get this Paradise whose width is equivalent to the distance between the heavens and the earth.” Some scholars ask, “Why is All?h describing Jannah by its width?” When you generally describe something, you describe it by its length. The scholars say that its length is beyond human comprehension, so All?h tells its width as being the greatest distance that the average mind thinks of, which is between the heavens and the earth. When All?h says that its width is as long as you can imagine, then its length will be longer than you can imagine. In ?a??? Muslim, the Prophet (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, “The lowest person in Jannah will be told by Allah to wish, so he will wish. All?h will tell him to wish again, and he will wish. All?h will keep asking him to wish until he runs out of wishes. Then All?h says, 'I will give you all of this and ten times what you have wished.'” Imagine if a person says he wants everything in this world and keeps on wishing – this is the lowest person in Jannah. What do you think will be the case of people higher than him? Also we learn from a number of traditions that the Prophet (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) gave us an idea of the dimensions of the ?khirah as being beyond comprehension. Our Prophet (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, “If you were to compare all of the heavens and earth and all of the creation around us to the Kursi of All?h, they would be like some silver coins thrown into the desert.” The silver coins are our creation and the desert is the Kursi of All?h. Then the Prophet (?allall?hu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, “The relation of the Kursi to the 'Arsh is the same as another coin thrown into the desert.” This is mindboggling and we can't even imagine this. The point here is that All?h is saying every person will get in Jannah more than you can imagine. Who are the people who will get this? “They are those who continually give of their money when things are easy and when things are difficult.” Ibn ?Abb?s said this is when you are poor and when you are rich. It is easy to give when you are rich, but when they are poor, they also give. Another scholar said that this is when you are healthy versus when you are sick. When you are healthy and young, it is easy to give, but when you get sick and old, then you get stingier. The point is that consistency in worship is a characteristic of the believer. “And they control their anger.” One of the characteristics of the muttaq?n is that they control their anger, which means that something causes you to be legitimately angry but your controlling is where piety comes in. Many of the scholars of the past, when explaining this verse, said the number of characteristic of controlling the anger is to control it in your household (i.e. to your wife, children, and servants) because these are the ones where nobody outside is monitoring you, and your anger can reach its limit and nobody knows. You have the power to get the anger out on your wife or children. If you can control your anger inside of the household, then you can control it outside of the household. Of the characteristics of the believers is that they control their anger and they forgive people. This is forgiveness based upon a legitimate fault. We are not talking about inventing faults, but somebody has done wrong, and then you forgive them. “And All?h loves those who go beyond this.” One of the very famous scholars of the past, Ahmed ibn Al-Qays, had a slave and was sitting in an audience of many people. The slave came with hot coffee or tea and tripped and it fell on him. He became so angry and people could see the anger come. The slaves of those times were very intelligent people, and he said, “My dear master, haven't you read what All?h says in the Qur'?n that of the characteristics of the muttaq?n is that they control their anger?” He said, “You are right, I will control my anger.” The slave went on, “And they forgive.” He said, “I have forgiven you.” The slave said, “All?h loves the mu?sin?n.” Al-Ahnaf said, “You won, you have been set free for the sake of All?h (sub??nahu wa ta'?la).” This shows that this is exactly what the verse is talking about. You keep on striving for excellence. “The muttaq?n who will be given Jannah are those who when they commit a very evil mistake…” Ibn ?Abb?s said this is zina. Notice that All?h says the muttaq?n might do a f??ishah. “…or they do some wrong.” Other scholars said f??ishah means a major sin and ?alamu anfusahum means a minor sin. What is the result of whatever sin they do? Dhakarull?h. They remember All?h. This is a beautiful verse. To become a muttaqi does not mean that you become sinless. The angels are sinless. To be a muttaqi means that when you commit a mistake, you remember. “And they ask All?h for forgiveness.” This is a beautiful verse that gives us hope. If you make a mistake, it does not disqualify you from being a muttaqi, and it doesn't disqualify you from Jannah as long as you remember All?h and ask All?h to forgive you. All?h makes a magnificent point here: Who else is the forgiver of sins other than All?h? Then All?h says, “And they don't persist in that sin.” Notice that this is another characteristic of the muttaqi. You don't drink and say astaghfirull?h and drink and say astaghfirull?h – that is a joke! You don't do that. I?r?r means that you make a genuine attempt to avoid. This is an intention. If you fall into the sin but had sincerely intended not to do it, then it does not disqualify this verse. The point is that they don't intend to go back to it but intend to become better. It is a sincere intention, but then you trip, but then you intend again and trip and intend again and trip. One of the scholars of the past said that even if you committed the sin 70 times a day but every time were sincere to give it up, then the verse still applies to you. What is required of you is the intention, and All?h knows your intention. Nobody is going to reach perfection, and nobody is going to become a walking angel. What is desired is that you keep on striving. “And they know that All?h forgives their sins and is their Lord and Master. These are the people who will get the forgiveness from their Lord and they will get Jannah as a result of what they have done.” The bottom line is that taqwa and ?m?n are not mere theoretical belief in All?h (sub??nahu wa ta'?la). It is action-based and demonstrated in what you do and say and deal with your wife and children. To summarize, the characteristics of the muttaq?n are those who give constantly regardless of the state that they are in – and Ramadan is the month of giving – and they control their anger and forgive people for the wrong that they have done and go beyond forgiveness and show good. When they commit a sin or find a fault in themselves, they remember All?h (sub??nahu wa ta'?la) and ask All?h for forgiveness, realizing that only All?h forgives the sins, and they make a decision to never return to that sin again, and they know and are conscious of who All?h is and who they are. These are the true muttaq?n. May All?h (sub??nahu wa ta'?la) make us amongst them. |
Anonymous
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The posted article above seems to have omitted the letter "a" in Allah, Imran, and certain other words.
Also "jannah" is the arabic word for Heaven. |
Anonymous
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OK, a really long post that repeats your earlier point that Allah forgives people *who believe in him.* The entire passage addresses "what it means to be a believer" and repeats the word *believer* many, many times. How did you miss this? Or did you realize this, but you felt that your argument now called for 1/2 page of obfuscation?
Moreover, this passage really isn't news, and I wonder what you think you're accomplishing here. In every single religion, the Supreme Being(s) rewards those who fall into line with what the Supreme Being(s) wants. There is absolutely nothing special about Islam in this regard. Moreover, it absolutely begs the question about what happens to non-Muslims ago aren't towing the line by embracing Islam. Your passage in no way addresses this question, because it's directed at and concerns believers exclusively. So how about addressing Allah's Catch 22 for non-believers: 1. If you've heard of Islam, you must study it, no excuses accepted. 2. If you've studied Islam, then you know the supposed "truth" and if you turn your back on Islam now you face an even worse fate. |
Anonymous
You keep waffling between asking about christians and polytheists. Christians, even those who believe in trinity, are believers. Polytheists are not believers. However, Allah does not punish those who have no idea they are committing a sin. The reason I keep repeating this is with the hope that at some point you will understand that. The verses from the Quran were shown. Now to each his own. |
Anonymous
Either you are lying or you don't know as much about the Quran as you think you know. The following Quran verse makes it very clear that believing in the trinity means you are not a believer: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment." |
Anonymous
+1. That's pretty clear and unambiguous. |